Chuck Shute Podcast
In depth interviews with musicians, comedians, authors, actors, and more! Guests on the show include David Duchovny, Billy Bob Thornton, Mark Normand, Dee Snider, Ann Wilson, Tony Horton, Don Dokken, Jack Carr and many more.
Chuck Shute Podcast
Cliff Rigano Discusses Dry Kill Logic's Comeback, New Music, Shows & More!
Cliff Rigano from Dry Kill Logic discussed the band's comeback, their new single "Now You Belong with the Dead," and their unique songwriting process. The discussion between Cliff Rigano and Chuck Shute delves into the evolving landscape of live shows in the music industry, emphasizing the importance of visually stimulating performances to compensate for declining record sales. They highlight the financial challenges bands face, such as Anthrax's tour cancellation due to financial unviability. The conversation also touches on the monetization of content through platforms like Patreon and the balance between free and paid content. Rigano mentions Dry Kill Logic's new song and upcoming shows, encouraging fans to follow them on social media for updates.
0:00:00 - Intro
0:00:20 - Band Reunion & New Single
0:03:15 - Songwriting Process & Originality
0:10:44 - Getting Reaction From Audiences
0:12:26 - The Business & Marketing Side of Music
0:14:30 - Departure from Roadrunner Records
0:20:35 - Handpicked By Dave Mustaine for Gigantour
0:24:40 - Of Vengeance & Violence Inspiration
0:27:35 - New Music, Singles Vs Albums & Merch
0:32:10 - Meet and Greets
0:33:53 - Strategically Playing Shows & Upcoming Dates
0:36:40 - Lineup Changes & Drumming
0:40:04 - Aftershock Festival & Watching Other Bands
0:41:05 - Lemmy, Maynard & Different Rockstar Personas
0:48:07 - Different Levels of Fame & Fanbase
0:51:01 - Music as a Commodity Vs. Utility
0:52:40 - Success, Hard Work & Making It
0:58:10 - Gimmick, Branding, Theater & Live Shows
1:00:40 - Free Vs. Paid Content, Fanbase & Business
1:04:20 - Promotion of Following the Band
1:05:08 - Outro
Dry Kill Logic Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/drykilllogic/
Dry Kill Logic Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/drykilllogic/?hl=en
Chuck Shute link tree:
Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!
Down with the heavy stars, rock and rolling through the cool guitars shops got the questions digging so sharp, feeling back layers hitting the heart.
Chuck Shute:Thanks so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Yeah,
Cliff Rigano:no worries, man, thanks for having
Chuck Shute:me. Yeah, welcome to the show. So getting the band back together, right? Because there's been a
Cliff Rigano:hiatus, there has been a hiatus,
Chuck Shute:yes, yeah. So what do you been up to? Oh,
Cliff Rigano:man, it's just wild living life, like everybody else, you know, we've, we've all, you know, we're all still good friends, so we still hang out and see each other, but, you know, we just weren't jamming, and we decided, you know, gosh, maybe back in 2000 16,017, to start writing again, which produced, you know, a collection of singles. And then, invariably, it led us back to the stage, which leads us here, you and I talking together?
Chuck Shute:Yeah. So the new single is called now you belong with the dead. That's a great title. Who is that about? Is that about someone specific?
Cliff Rigano:No, it's about everything and everyone. You know, that's the way most songs are these days. But no, I appreciate that the title is actually taken from a line in the horror movie The Mummy. The full line is, I loved you once, but now you belong with the dead.
Chuck Shute:Well, okay, so which mummy, though, because there's like the Brennan Fraser, and then there's like the
Cliff Rigano:old, the original, the original, original, yeah, the original, yeah, whatever that was. So
Chuck Shute:you're like, You're a big horror movie fan, then,
Cliff Rigano:not necessarily the hugest, but that line stuck out to me when watching it. There was just an eloquence about it. It summed up, you know, so many emotions. It summed up the emotion of rage, it sums up the emotion of closure, it sums up the emotion of moving on. And I just thought it to be an incredibly poetic way to express yourself. So the line just stuck with me once I heard it.
Chuck Shute:No, that is a great line. Do they get a songwriting credit?
Cliff Rigano:Well, thankfully, it's the original, so I think we're out of any copyright concern,
Chuck Shute:yeah. Because what years out of that's got to be like, Was it my 30s or 40s or
Cliff Rigano:something, something like that, yeah, that's what I mean. Like the original 1930s version of the mummy that, you know, the heroine says it, you know, that's how, that's how old it is. You know, it's identified as the heroine in the in the movie, yeah, do you go back
Chuck Shute:and watch a lot of those old movies? Or is this like something that you just remember from watching as a kid, or whatever.
Cliff Rigano:You know, I remember reading the line somewhere as part of a script. It was just something I was reading anecdotally about that movie, and just, I don't know, I was down a bit of a rabbit hole when I was reading about it. Just kind of, I don't know. I think, I think really, just the way the script was written in this clip was what got me and then I just caught that line, and I was like, Man, that's just an awesome turn of phrase, right there. And it just stuck with me, you know? And then we needed a title, and it seemed to be a perfect compliment to the subject matter. So, yeah,
Chuck Shute:no, that's perfect. I love that. I love that kind of stuff. I love stuff too, that that stands out, because that stands out a little bit, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of songs that, because I'm a big hair metal fan, I'll admit it, but like, there's a lot of hair metal songs that have the same title. You know what I mean? Like, the bands, like, I'm, like, Wait, there's already a song called that. You couldn't come up with a different, you know, title for that. Like, it's kind of, it's annoying when things are too just, yeah, cliched, I guess, right?
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, this one definitely felt like it had something unique about it. So,
Chuck Shute:yeah, is that what you look for as well when you're when you're writing music, because, I mean, you, your band has a cult following, like a lot of people really appreciate the music that you're making. It is more like and when I listen, it sounds more original. It doesn't sound like you're trying to sound like someone else. Sound like someone
Cliff Rigano:else. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I think, you know, ultimately, you know, to your point, there's so it's very difficult to have an original thought these days, right? There's a lot of brain power in the world thinking about the same subject matter. So, you know, song titles, I think, can very easily become, you know, duplicative when you, when you when you think about it, you think you have a good song title in a lyric or in a moment, and then all of a sudden, you search it in Spotify, and there's 37 songs with the same title. It's like, Oh, man. But again, it's like, sometimes you really just happen upon these turn of phrases that are, are turns of phrase that are really interesting and but that one just happened to stick out. And, you know, we've had a couple of those, I think, throughout the band's kind of discography where the titles were really informed by something special. You know, we just tried to hold on to it.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. So sometimes when you're having a right. Session, you you'll kill ideas. If it's something that has already been done before, it's too cliched.
Cliff Rigano:Well, you know, I mean, it's interesting, right? It's like, lyrically, I think that there's subject matter that, you know, it's easy to rehash. So there's a diligence that goes into like, what is it that we want to say? What's the most interesting and compelling way to say that? And then, you know, how do you kind of make it unique and your own when we think about, like, you know, chorus lyrics or song titles, or the things that you will just kind of instantly find salient when you're let's do a song like, Oh, I remember the song title, I remember the the chorus, I remember key phrases throughout the song. I think those things are always important. As a writer, you want to make sure that you have these lyrical moments for people to gravitate towards within that message, right? Because you want to, you know, have a certain perspective or give a certain point. But how you do that, I think, is really interesting. I don't know if there's any right or wrong way or good or bad way to write a song or a lyric, or, you know, any of that, there's just what works in the moment in the song that you're writing, and what can potentially be a song later on. So, you know, we're writing something, and I have a lyric and it doesn't fit. It doesn't make it bad or wrong. It just means it doesn't fit for right now. So put it off to the side, and then when we start writing the next song, we can start around that phrasing or that emotion or that note, and then begin the journey again. And then that'll be perfect. So, you know, it's just an exercise of finding what's the right fit at the right moment.
Chuck Shute:So you can start within it. You can start with a lyric, or could start with a riff, or could it do the songs ever start with A for you guys that ever start with a drum beat or, like, just something totally different,
Cliff Rigano:you know, you typically, how we write is, you know, the instrument bearing members of the band, generally, Jay and Brendan will get together, and they have riffs and structures and thoughts about what the songs should look and sound like. You know, they start to take shape, really, with them, kind of just hammering out the parts that they have. Now I might have a lyrical idea or a progression, or, Hey, I want to start a song like this, or hey, man, I have this idea about going from a, you know, a three chorus to a chorus, and we do a stop, and then I do say this word and hold this note. So it's like, very formative. It's very loose, it's just kind of directional, generally, they'll shape out, you know, a song, and kind of hammer out the parts, and then from there I get it, and I start to think about phrasing and syllables and note structure. And then the song continues to evolve. The lyrics continue to evolve. And then everything kind of starts to form. You know, once we have a structure, and once we say, okay, the notes will go here, and they'll go in this pattern, and these will be the syllable placements, and these will be the, you know, where we put the words, and these will be where we don't put words, then you could start to fit a particular message into that phrasing. And then you start to think about how it how it sounds when it's in that phrasing. You know, do I have enough? Do I have enough time to express a thought? Do I need one two lines instead of one line, you know? And because you don't want it to be like, just short, Poppy sentences, you want to have a coherent thought when you read the lyrics, like, Oh, this is about something, or, you know, motivated by something, or, you know, intentionally about something. So,
Chuck Shute:yeah, that's, I'm always fascinated by the songwriting process. Like, I heard one of my cohort podcasters use the phrase. I never heard this phrase before, but he's, like, change a word, get a third. Like, do you guys have because it sounds like for your band, it sounds like it's more collaborative, where everyone's kind of working, like not somebody's just changing one word and gets the songwriting credit.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah. I mean, you know, we're all kind of diligently working on the song itself. And, you know, we don't necessarily think so much about, you know, that piece of it, per se, I think that as long as we're all working and standing in service of the song, then contributions are equal, getting into a place where it feels good if we're all working on it together, it's not necessarily about, oh, I contributed this piece, so I just, it's just about, let's make the best song possible, and if we're all collectively working towards that, then we're all in the boat together.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, do you like that process the best of because to me, that would be, I mean, I'm not musically talented. I wish I was, but if I was, I feel like that would be the coolest thing is creating something new, like making new songs. I guess performing would be fun too, though, because then you have the crowd and you can see their reaction.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah. I mean, I, you know, for us, and again, I can only speak for us, and really, you know, primarily for myself. But I think we enjoy that the act of writing that song together. Like, when you're, you know, when you're a kid and you're in the room with your friends, and like, you'd play a riff, you're like, that's the best riff, and you bash out a drum beat, like, that's the best drum beat. You know, that kind of, like, whimsical child like, emotion still exists, even though we're old men now, but the idea of, like, you play a riff, you're like, god damn dude, that's all. Awesome. And then, you know, kick in with the bass, and then drums kick in. You're like, holy shit, listen to this thing. And then, you know, it's like, wow. Which words here? You know, this would be awesome. It's like, that momentum is, like, where the real excitement is? Because, to be fair, if you're moving at that level, then you're moving when you're recording it in the same direction, and then when you're playing it live, you're excited, and then the audience is like, Whoa, you're killing it. Like it all kind of has to start there, so we focus all our efforts at that part, because if we can get the ball rolling there, then everything moves quite seamlessly. But yeah, to your point, you play it live, and that's kind of like the end result. That's the payoff, you know, is when people are like, going nuts to it. You're like, I knew it. I knew. Yeah, you know. But
Chuck Shute:so do you ever get disappointed, though? Because, like, to me, just in terms of a podcast, like, there's times where it's a similar kind of thing, like, I book a guest, and I'm really excited. I got this guest on, and then I started doing the research, and I get the questions, like, Oh, I got the best questions for this guy. And then I do the interview, and I leave the interview and I go, Oh my. It's like, a high, like, I just, like, I just killed this interview. It's so amazing. And then you put it out to the world, and then, yeah, like, the charity on top is, like, if people actually watch it and comment and say, Oh, that was great. But then sometimes you get the opposite, either no one watches it, or people comment and say, you suck as an interviewer. These questions are terrible. And you get all these trolls. You're like, shit. Okay, well, I just piss people off. Well,
Cliff Rigano:you know, I mean, I think ultimately, right, like, and I'm sure you'd agree you probably have to miss the mark pretty badly to think that it's like, amazing, and then all of a sudden, everybody's like, Dude, this is the worst thing you've ever
Chuck Shute:done. How did I miss that?
Cliff Rigano:But again, you can't really control how people react to stuff, and that's the thing, right? You can just know that you've controlled everything that you can control. You're proud of the output. You believe in the questions, you believe in the answers that you got. We believe in the songs that we wrote and the messages and the intention. Maybe people just didn't get enough time to spend with it, or maybe they just, you know, weren't introduced to it the right way. Maybe they weren't, you know, in the right frame of mind, or in a position where they could really absorb it. So, like, there's a few things that once it leaves you you can't control, but ultimately, if you're doing it with pace, you'll find that more often than not, it works. And, you know, you could bat 350 and that's a Hall of Fame career, yeah,
Chuck Shute:I'm assuming. I mean, if you're like most musicians, probably the part of being the music business you hate is the business part and the management and the marketing and all that record contracts and all that shit, right? Like, you just want to make music and you want people to like it, but it's hard, like to do all that other stuff to get it marketed. That's kind of a pain in the ass, right? Well,
Cliff Rigano:I mean, you know, there is a work that goes into the business of the music business is, is definitely that, you know, I will say, though, that if, if going away for 20 years and then coming back has given me any sort of perspective, the democratization of the industry, I think, is probably the biggest and most seismic shift, because, in truth, back in 2004 if I wanted to have this conversation with you, I needed to have a publicist. If I needed people to hear my music at scale, I needed to have a radio guy. If I wanted people to see me, I had to have a video guy. And then if I wanted to be on tour, I had to have an agent. And if I wanted to be sold, I had to have a record label. And all of that hierarchy creates gatekeepers. It creates, you know, a system of, you know, malicious, intended times. So there's not really, like an even playing field. Now, I can have a conversation with an audience at will. You know, I can create things and immediately release them. I can get instantaneous feedback. I can get to scale very quickly through paid media. And I can work on engagement and salience, and, you know, the right emotional connection to that art. I could never do that before. Now, to your point, it's a lot more work, but it's a lot more control that just didn't exist 20 years ago. So that part, I think, is, like, really interesting, because I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying that if you work really hard and then you realize some independent gatekeeper isn't going to let you through that's an unfairness that just doesn't necessarily exist today, at least not in the same ways. So the cosmic observation of the changes continuously amazes me how much different it is between then and now. Well,
Chuck Shute:yeah, because it wasn't explain to me what happened with because you guys were on Roadrunner, and then did I read this right? It was something like they wanted your next album to be more commercial. And you guys were like, No, we're not going to do that. Like, let us out of here. We want to get out of this contract. Is that what happened?
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, you know, it's an interesting one, right? Yes. I mean, in short, yeah, that's pretty much the story with a little bit of context. You know, we were a band that was, you know, independent, for about seven years. We released a variety of EPS toward up and down the East Coast, and then when we signed. With Road Runner, you know, Road Runner, we were in the hallowed halls of heavy metal greatness. You know, we were staring at the plaques of the contemporaries that we had always admired, from typo negative Sepultura to Fear Factory to slipknot. And there was a model at the time that Fear Factory had mass or Roadrunner had mastered, and that was, you know, touring continuously building a fan base, then growing at scale according to that success, getting into bigger tours, taking you out to radio, going after editorial outlets, like they had a formula that worked consistently for all their bands. And you know, we signed at a point when that model was still in place. And then a few different things happened. 2001 happened, and the shift between, you know, heavy music to kind of more format friendly rock began because it was hard to play songs like Let The Bodies Hit The Floor and dragula on radio, because the sentiment after 911 was not that aggressive. At the same time, Roadrunner was breaking Nickelback, which was all of a sudden, just knocking down doors everywhere. And the label moved from full independent distribution to being a part of Island Def Jam. And all of a sudden, that came with a new sense of scale and a new sense of urgency around what success could look like. And that dovetailed into Nickelback theory of a dead man. Jerry Cantrell, you know, some of those more radio format friendly bands of the early 2000s that Roadrunner was putting out. And for us, a band that was a part of that previous independent tour heavy model, you know, it's like musical chairs, all of a sudden there isn't a chair for you anymore. And in my conversations with the A and R folks, the exact phrase that was used was, listen, in order for you to move forward here, this needs to be more about business and less about art. And I look back, and I was like, I'm 26 years old, and I have no idea what that statement actually means. I sing in a heavy metal band, and this is kind of just who we are. And you know, within 120 days, we were out of every deal that we had, management, publishing, label, Agent, you know, it was, it was a pretty quick slide down. What
Chuck Shute:did they want you to do? Like, make a ballot or something, or like, what? I mean, I'll give you an example.
Cliff Rigano:At the time you had Nickelback,
Chuck Shute:yeah, they couldn't expect you to go Nickelback, right? No.
Cliff Rigano:But at the exact moment that we were having this conversation, Corey Taylor is breaking records with bother, and all of a sudden, Nickelback is playing an acoustic song that is just as powerful as any stain song, any Nickelback song. It's on the Spider Man soundtrack. It's breaking records at radio. So you're showing a model where this can be done. Now they look at us, because on our first record, we had an acoustic song like, good night. I am still singing throughout the record. So if there was a way to massage this to a place where we could maybe do something like that, then maybe there would be a conversation about a future. But that wasn't something we were naturally moving towards the way Corey had had success with Slipknot, and was maybe just exploring his own musicality and moving into, you know, would eventually become a solo career and eventually stone sour. So again, it's not like we're mad about anything. We just recognized how far along the vision of Roadrunner was to evolve their artist base, and we just weren't there yet. We were still young kids on a first record that, like, didn't really know how to work with producers, didn't really know how to stretch and grow as songwriters, we were kind of like, I don't know. We're just a metal band, like metal bands. Do you know we didn't, we just didn't have context. We didn't have, like, a strong manager that could help guide us. It just wasn't in the cards for us. And that's just part of the story. So you regret that part
Chuck Shute:of the do you wish that you wish that you would have done it differently, or are you happy the way things worked
Cliff Rigano:out? Man, I can't go back and play general after the war. That would be silly. All I can do now is just take from the life lessons and kind of look at the experiences. I just say, Okay, well, where do we go from here? I mean, you know, listen, we were never in a position. I mean, listen, it would have been the proverbial Hail Mary for a band that had sold 26,000 records at that point on their first album, to all of a sudden come up with some hail mary ballad that's going to do a platinum record, because that's kind of the expectation. And all of a sudden we're going to be a heavy new metal band. That's what going to turn into the new stains, because you need that to fill a gap, like we're just not that. We just, we just didn't have the capacity that. And they were very successful without us doing that. You know, you had bands like El Nino that started to skyrocket after that, you know, building into the formula that Roadrunner was very successful. So again, there's a lot of opportunities. And at the same time that all of that's happening, you have this very small band from Boston called Kill Switch engage that is just completely annihilating the whole face of aggressive music. And not only are they stylistically completely different than new metal or anything that's come before them, but they're doing it all themselves. Adam D is. Producing everything himself. So it's like, in a world of, like, meeting a Ross Robinson and needing a producer to come in and kind of guide your vision all of a sudden, like, Adam could do everything himself, and he's crushing the guitar live. I mean, okay, like, what's even happening in this world anymore? Like it's so crazy now, so I get it. Roadrunner was just exploding. It was a wonderful time listen. And we're totally thankful to be on that label. We wouldn't be here without that record. You know? We just had the crew. We just had the run that we had, and that's just the story of the band.
Chuck Shute:Yeah? Well, one person that was a big fan of your band was Dave Mustaine, right? Didn't he handpick you guys to tour with Megadeth.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, you know, we were, we were so fortunate. I mean that that is the biggest tour we've ever been on with gigantor. And when they were putting that tour together, you know, Dave's the one, they chose us to open. And you know, as kind of legend has it, he was turned on to the band because justice was into the band. And Justice at the time was like, hey, dry kills a pretty cool band. Told his dad, you know? I mean, Justice was young at that point. This is 20 some odd years ago, but we were really fortunate to be on that tour, and that was one where it was like, holy shit. Like, this is crazy. I mean, you know, we got, we're back out with Fear Factory, which is awesome, but you have life agony, and you have Symphony X, and you have Dream Theater, Megadeth and, like, just all these awesome bands. And it was just really cool. Like, that was a fun experience. Did
Chuck Shute:you get to, like, hang out with them backstage? Because I hear different things when I talk to musicians, some say, Oh, they just kept to their bus or their dressing room. And other people say, No, yeah, we all hung out. We're best friends,
Cliff Rigano:yeah? I mean, you know, listen, we, you know, I mean, to the point that Dave has time to hang out with, you know, the second of 15 bands on the bill. But he was very gracious to us. He gave us a wonderful bottle of champagne being on the tour, you know, we did see each other backstage, and we would hang with all the bands. So it was a communal feeling that everybody's kind of just in motion throughout the day and throughout the night. But we never wanted to, you know, be a bother. But yeah, we would see each other, you know, moving around and walking around the, you know, the venues and whatnot. So everyone was very friendly and very nice. So yeah, there was no, no pretense, no attitudes, no egos. And again, we're, you know, we're just happy to be here no matter where we are. So we're not running much interference on anything that's going on. We're just, you know, happy to be in the room no matter what room it is.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, do you like those big shows versus where there's like 20 band, because I know you're playing like the aftershock festival or whatever, do you like those kinds of things? Or do you like more, like the smaller Club, where it's your crowd that people are going directly, just for you,
Cliff Rigano:you know, I'll be honest with you, I don't really know, and I'll tell you why I say that. Hey, it's been 20 years, and I've kind of forgotten a lot of things, right? But we've never played a show like we just played rockville, for example. We never played on a stage that big, never played to that size audience before. I have no context. Being on a 60 foot wide stage with 6000 people in front of me at two in the afternoon. I mean, that whole experience is like, well, that's a first. I have no idea what this is like, so that's crazy. And then now we're playing these headline shows, and these are in more familiar venues, you know, smaller venues, 300 500 cap. But last time we played those rooms, we were a young band on a, you know, on the album cycle that, you know, hey, we're draculogic. It's our first album. Or, hey, we're dragologic. This is our second record. Like the deal, the third time we've ever been to your town. 20 years later, people have built a relationship with these songs. You know that kind of is go longer relationship with the music than we were an active band. So now, when we think about these smaller, intimate rooms, the level of fan that's going to be in this room is a 20 year fan. I've never played to a fan that's knows the music this intimately. I've only played to a fan where I'm like, Hi, this is a new record. Would you like to consider having it in your life now, 20 years later, to play for them and like, yeah, we took your advice, and we've been listening ever since. I don't know. So I'm really excited to have that emotion too. We never had anybody like super fans that know the records this intimately play before. So I'm really excited to kind of get to the end of this touring experience and and just decide for myself, almost, like, which one was better. How do we feel about it? Like, do we like these things? Do we not like these things? I just have no context. I don't I don't barely remember anything, and it all feels so different now when, when I try to compare it,
Chuck Shute:yeah, that's cool. Like, well, one of your albums of vengeance and violence. I mean, it's such an intense energy on that one. What are the can you share, like, your insights the with the creative process for that? Like, how do you get so hyped up, you know, making something like that? Like, is, are drugs involved? Or is it just like, just freaking, getting angry and working out and punching things? Or you.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, I mean, the anger is, the anger is the dopamine, you know what? I mean, that's, that's the fun part, is being angry and like expressing that constructively. But, you know, that was an interesting record. We were coming off of the dead and dreaming, and we were on an independent label, repossession records that had a new distribution deal with, you know, then Ada, which has become 75 other distributors since then, but at the time, repossession needed to continue to keep the pipeline full and just keep product in the market. So we had just come off of the dead and dreaming, and they were like, hey, any chance we could get two releases from you guys this year? And I was like, fucking cool. How's that gonna work? We just came off the road. We have, we're, you know, we have no idea. So what we did was we started the writing process. I made the DVD that is in the Magellan complex. I've never made DVD before. I never made a video before. 2005 I just loaded a bunch of stuff into my Mac, and went into the editing program. Was like, Okay, here's a here's a video of some stuff. And then we took some of the demos and did a cover, and just, you know, a couple of covers, and threw that on there. Was like, Okay, here you could have this for one, but you can't charge more than six bucks for it, because it's not worth more than $6 to be honest. And then we kept working on the record. And I think when we came off the road, you know, musically, we we knew what we wanted to do, but we just needed some time. Like we knew we wanted to do something different. We knew we wanted to continue being aggressive and we wanted to push some boundaries. I knew I wanted to try to write maybe a little bit more complex lyrics that had maybe a little bit more of a story that wove throughout the song. You know, the first couple of albums were always like, smash, smash, very angry, smash, smash. And this one was, like, very angry, maybe a little bit more eloquent, so tried to just phrase it to be a little bit more evolved, a little bit more adult. But we did it very fast. And then we released that also in September 2006 and then the label folded, and we went on a hiatus. All that worked for, for no, but we haven't played those songs in the US. You know, in 2006 we toured Europe twice, and Australia once, and we played the songs there, you know, just one time, just to test them out on one tour. So these songs are essentially new to anyone in the US. We'd never played them here. So introducing stuff to to folks like that, I think, is really interesting in this, in this opportunity too.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that's going to be fun. So there's probably been a lot of fans that have been waiting for this for a long time.
Cliff Rigano:You know, if social media content and conversation is to be believed that, yeah, that that's the number one thing folks have been asking for is, When can we see you live? When can we see you live? And then, you know, now it's like, okay, well, we have these shows this year. And now the second question, when do we get a record? When do we get a record? So hopefully that will be, you know, coming as well. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:it seems like the new process is just to more have like the singles and put the singles out. Like people care more about the singles than they used to. Used to be about the singles when the pop music first hit, and then it became all about the album. And now it's like, going back to the singles. It seems like,
Cliff Rigano:you know, to your point, like people digest as they go, instead of releasing everything. I think it's twofold for us. Number one, the industry doesn't seem to be receptive to the idea of a singles based artist, you know, release schedule to just kind of do it at whim. People pay attention to bodies of work. People pay attention to record releases. It's easier to wrap your mind around, it's easier to promote, it's easier to talk about. So it seems like a full body of work still gets more runway than just singles. But I think within that, to be honest, what I would like to have is not so much an album as like releasing 11 songs at once. I think we need a body of work. And I think we're excited now to create a body of work. You know, you release it, four releases of three songs each, 12 releases, singles, 112, Song album. You know, however you do it, you just need the the body of work you need the songs. So that's the part that we're most excited to think about now, is, how do we just go in and start writing the best songs possible, and then people far smarter than us will be like, Hey, this is the right way to release it out into the world. So less married to the format, more married to the idea that even if you're going to dribble out singles, you got to have them all recorded first. So that's what we're, you know, angling towards. Yeah, I
Chuck Shute:think the one thing that's cool for as a fan is just seeing when bands do, if they do release an album, because obviously, you guys don't make any money on the streaming or it's very little. But you know, some of the bands have gotten creative with this and said, Okay, you know, the vinyl is big, so they'll put things on vinyl, and then they'll get real creative and have all these different kinds different kinds of props. Like, I'm trying to remember what band it was that the thing came in, like, it was, like a wooden like, coffin. It was so cool. Like, they're getting very creative with, like, kind of the boxes and the packaging to kind of sell it more so that a fan would be like, oh, I want that. Because it's, like, this whole thing, I know, for me, I'm a big Guns and Roses fan, and. They had those box sets. It's like, of course, you can get those songs on Spotify for free, but to get this box set with all the pictures and a laminate and all this, like, cool little, you know, little accessories, I thought that. I think that stuff's kind of fun.
Cliff Rigano:No, you're, you're, right. And for us, you know, I think we're, we're two fold number one, we we don't really know how, what people want. Again, we just don't know. We have no context, right? So to your point, they've been living with the music digitally for, you know, a generation now, essentially. So as you start to think about different ways to consume that music, are you interested in those physical items? Is the digital stuff? Do you kind of have that married into your mind, like we need to learn a little bit more about what our audience would like from us, and then I think we're totally cool with making it. You know, if there's anything that we're somewhat conscious of in all of this, it's I might not be able to tell you the one definitive reason why we're doing any of this, but I can tell you one definitive reason that we're not doing any of this and we're not doing this for money. None of us, 20 years later are like, Hey, let's go make some money off some fans that seem to we don't give a shit. We all have jobs, we have lives. We're going to pay our bills. It's going to be just fine. So, like, we're also a little cautious about, like, looking greedy. And like, you know, hey, I'm here in a 300 cap room, and you have 70 3t shirts and 45 different vinyls and 63 different, you know, mezcals that you're offering with a partner of a CD and a consent you know what? I mean, like, people be like, What did you make all this stuff just to sell it to us? So we're conscious and somewhat cognizant of that we do. I mean, again, people want stuff. They're like, Hey, make us things. We're just trying to be respectful of the dollar and just like, hey, what would you like? Would you like merch? We'll make like, some awesome merch. Would you like vinyl? We'll then we'll get to the vinyl like, it just feels I don't know. We're just kind of cautious about that stuff. And I don't know that maybe it's just our Italian guilt, or my Italian guilt, that kicks in when I started to think about the commercialization of it just freaks me out sometimes. Yeah?
Chuck Shute:Well, I mean, yeah, I guess if you don't have to worry about that, as if that's not a top priority, I know, but one thing that is like a huge thing for the fans that I don't, I feel like a lot of bands are not as interested in, but it has been a good money maker for them, is the meet and greets. Like, what do you how do you feel about that? Is that something that you would you want to do, do you want to charge for that? Or do you want to have a reduced rate, or do it for free? Or,
Cliff Rigano:you know, it's it. That's a, that's a wonderful question. And, you know, I don't begrudge anyone for any behavior that they do. Being out on the road, touring is a, is a very expensive proposition. So I can see a world where, like, those things could make sense for us right now, we'll just meet you at the merch booth. Now we'll see, have you bought a t shirt? I can't believe you bought a t shirt. I can't believe charging you $1 to sit in the same room as me and be like that. I'm just taking your money. Now, this is crazy. So, yeah, we'll just meet you at the merch booth. We'll see at the bar, we'll meet you outside, like, we'll take all the pictures, and I'll give a shit, like, it's fine, totally cool. But again, I don't grudge anyone. I'm fascinated by the business that it does. You know, there's a real in base for stuff, so that's
Chuck Shute:what I'm saying. Like, there's bands that are, I mean, you would not think this band could charge this much for meet and greet, but they do, and people buy it. So yeah,
Cliff Rigano:and that's what I mean, like, god bless that. I'm just amazed. I'm like, That's so awesome. It's not I just think this part of the world that is just so new to me, yeah, and that's what I'm saying. Like, it can't I don't have an opinion about it, because I don't know enough about anything to have any opinions. I just know that behaviorally, if I look back at how we do things, give us 10 minutes to get out of these wet clothes, man, and we'll see at the verge booth. We'll be there in a second. You know, get outside that we'll just come back inside and hang out with y'all and party. So that's just kind of how we operate on that stuff. But
Chuck Shute:that's cool. So the you guys all have day jobs, and the day jobs don't interfere with any of the touring conflicts or anything. Well,
Cliff Rigano:no, I mean, you know, if you think about the way that we're doing this now, we're being really strategic. Touring is a very relative term, you know, where we're strategically playing shows, where they make sense for us. So, you know, you go to Rockville, it's on a Sunday. You play a couple of festivals, Wednesday, Friday. You know, these things. We can manage it with our schedules. I think that, you know, if there were ever a universe that provided an opportunity that made sense to tour at scale, you know, over time, we would have to consider that, but if you're made an offer that you can't refuse, then you must take it as seriously as it must be taken. So I think we're open to all conversations, but it's not like get in the van. We're getting a van back. You know, it's like we're managing it with reasonable expectations. So, yeah, because it
Chuck Shute:looks like most of the upcoming shows you guys have are these big festivals.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, we have these two headline shows coming up in a couple of weeks in New York and New Jersey Brooklyn, on the 13th at the monarch and the 14th at thing back. That's in New Jersey. And then, to your point, after that, it's all festivals. So we fly in, we fly out. You know, it's easy, easy. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:that's what I've seen a lot of bands do. Have you looked into casino gigs? Because those are really fun, and fun for the fans, fun for the band. And I think they, they pay very well to the band too. I guess that's not a major factor for you guys, but it is kind of probably be nice to get it.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, listen, I mean, again, like covering costs is always awesome. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not a money making exercise, right? Like, we don't necessarily want to make a ton of money, but don't want to be in the red obviously, either. And to your point, I think now what we're really also interested in discovering is like, where are the places that we should go that have audiences that are receptive to the band? Like, you know? I mean, we've done a fair amount of touring in our life, but where are the places that we should go if we want to kind of celebrate 20 years of the dead and dreaming or just kind of reconnect with folks and play these, you know, three to 500 cap rooms. We don't have delusions of grandeur. We don't have, you know, again, unreasonable expectations. But where should we go? And I think that's going to be part of the exercise for our agency into 2026 is to try to figure out, like, hey, like, what markets beyond New York and New Jersey would be receptive to dry kill headliner shows, and then we'll start to think about, you know, going out to those as well. And you know, that could be just a whole year in and of itself. So we're just excited to see folks that are excited to see us, to be honest. We've, we've played so many places that to go back to any of them now is really an exciting proposition, to be honest. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:and so who? Because you've had some lineup changes. So how does that work with I mean, with this current lineup, these are, I'm assuming, these are people that were in the band, or you've gotten some new members, with
Cliff Rigano:the exception of the drummer, J Jason Bazzi, our guitar player has been with us since the dead and dreaming. Uh Brendan Kane, who's our bass player, has been with us also since that same time, but he was in other bands, so he couldn't join the band. He joined us in 2005 and he's been with us ever since. He toured with us in Europe on the vengeance and violence. So he's been with us forever. So the core nucleus, the three of us, have been together for, you know, 20 years, we're all incredibly close. We hang out all the time. So like, you know, the core of dry kill is still the same. Our drummer now is Kevin Bucha, who used to be the drummer for the Acacia strain. He's a monster player. Such a great, wonderful addition to the band. We're super fortunate to have him behind the drums. And to be honest, this is really just the toughest version of this band that's ever been. I mean, Brendan was in 100 Demons and 1000 Falling Skies, so you have this like toughness to the music and the rhythm section that just compliments Jay. And it's really just a treat to play with such a sonically strong band.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I see, I think the the drumming in this kind of, in this kind of metal that you guys are doing is so underrated. I had the drummer actually from kill switch on my show, and I was trying, like, He's so modest, but I'm like, Dude, I am so impressed by how fast you can play those, those guys, like in Slayer and stuff, all those, all those kind of metal bands. I feel like the drumming is very underrated. I feel like that would be a very hard thing physically to do.
Cliff Rigano:I mean, I can't do it on a drum set for like, a count of four, right? I can't do it for like, yeah, these guys need it for 75 minutes. You know what? I mean, yeah. And this hand's just going so fast, this hand's just keeping the beat and the feet, and it's like, I don't get it, man. I mean, again, that is a talent that I enjoy. You know, in a world of like playing instruments poorly, drums is one of them, but I watch a real drummer play and I realize how far away I am from being a real drummer, especially in the metal genre, the talent level is just off the charts. If speed is just so underrated, and the performance of these guys, you know, drum kill switch, all these bands, it's obvious.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I hope that never goes away, because I know that some bands want to use the drum machines or whatever, but I'm like, I can't I like to watch a real person do it. It's just, it's amazing. It's, it really is, like you said, it's a talent, that it's like, I think it's underrated, and I hope it never does go away. Because I know a lot of obviously the pop music they use drum machines, but I hope that that doesn't happen to metal and rock, that they start using long
Cliff Rigano:live, the drum cam, man, long live, the drum cam. I love my one of my favorite drum cams to watch is Eloy on all of these Slipknot tours. And I'm like, Dude, you're just a monster behind that kid, like, just watching him muscle out those beats. I'm like, my god. You're like, you're beating up this, like a it's like the mugging every time you're beating up this drum set when you play. So awesome. Them to watch. I love the drum cam perspective that
Chuck Shute:is so, yeah. So like, when you go to, like, Aftershock, because, I mean, there's so many crazy bands that are playing there, like corn and perfect circle, Marilyn Manson, like, are you gonna just do your set and then go, I mean, I feel like that'd be the best thing about being on a bill like that is just having a backstage pass to watch all these other bands,
Cliff Rigano:pretty much. And the best part about being on early is that you get done. You got the rest of the day just floating around. No more responsibility. I'm done. I go have catering, I go get a drink, I go watch these bands. So yeah, that's the that's the most fun, to be honest, is just kind of sit off to the side of the stage and just watch how it all kind of unfolds, and to see how other bands operate, to see their stage shows. And, yeah, it's again, the perspective is just so fascinating and and to be able to be a part of it, like we're just incredibly grateful, after all this time, to just be able to even witness it, much less perform, just to be able to sit on the side of the stages and watch all these artists, you know, do their thing. It's like, my god, what? What an awesome perspective. Yeah, what is
Chuck Shute:it? What have you learned from I mean, because you guys toured with Motorhead too, like, I mean, Lemmy, you must, you must have learned things from him. He must have had some wisdom.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, I mean, Motorhead, tell you dead. I mean, we played, we played a few shows with, with, with those guys. And, you know, again, when you're when you're when you're around legacy musicians like that, and you're around people that you know you just consider preeminent thought leaders in the genre, when it comes to writing, when it comes to stage shows, when it comes to connections and interactions with The audience, like and it's easy for them to be distracted, and it's easy for them to be aloof, and it's easy for them to be thinking about something else, and to kind of just operate in a universe where, like, they're just always busy all the time, and maybe, you know, they have moments of reflection or moments of engagement, but that's one of the things I thought that was always different about Lemmy and the guys in Motorhead, like, they walk into the dressing room and they're like, Hey, what's going on? And you're like, holy shit. Like, Mickey D's here talking to my drummer about, like, you know, things about drawing, you're like, and Lemmy is talking about, like, political war, like, you know, you're just like, I'm definitely the dumbest one in this room, and I'm the most intimidated, because I don't want to say a goddamn thing, but I'm sitting here drooling like an idiot in front of Lemmy. You're like, oh and again. Like, he's just so smart and so gracious and so down to earth. And I just remember all those guys were just, you know, they come in the dressing room, they hang out, to eat, some catering, ask a question. They sit down, you know, lemme all smoke and go play a video game in the corner for six hours. You didn't get, you know, like he was, like, I just played a video game. You know, that's it. Video game.
Chuck Shute:Okay, so it's like, a big kid, almost, but, like, really smart,
Cliff Rigano:yeah. I mean, they were really one of the smartest people I've ever met. I mean, just, just just somebody that had such a well rounded perspective on basically everything. You know, he had a really well informed opinion about so much. And you would talk to him, and he would just, you know, be very articulate, so he'd explain himself very simply. And you realize you can't do the same. You know, you may have thoughts, but you can't get them out of your head. You know, he just had a way of communicating where, like, didn't have to say a lot, but he said so much. You took away so much from it that you knew what he was talking about without him really having to, like, repeat himself, or, you know, use the wrong words. He just just remember them being incredibly eloquent, Lemmy especially,
Chuck Shute:yeah, it's crazy. Like, just doing this podcast, like, meeting some of these guys, like, D Snyder and stuff. They just, they have this like, personality. And you're just like, Oh, this guy's, like, a star, like, he just has this star persona. And, yeah, they just, like, when they talk, you listen, and you're like, wow. Like, it's just something about, like, I'm sure Lemmy had that as well. I never met him, but,
Cliff Rigano:yeah, no. I mean to your point, like, you know, you there's a magnetism that you just can't kind of tear yourself away from, and whether that's how they carry themselves, how they carry themselves, or how they speak, or what they say, you know, whatever it is, just like this, this magnet, you're just drawn to it. And to your point, like, that's the rock star effect, you know, happening and unfolding in front of you, and it's awesome to see it, you know? And when you see someone's really got that, it's like, wow, man, you're just a star. You just command the room no matter what room you're in.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I'm always fast, like, how do they do that? Is it just natural? They're just born with it. I feel like a lot of times they're just
Cliff Rigano:born that's just who they are. I don't think you can be taught that. I think you're just, you don't try. It's just who you are, you know,
Chuck Shute:yeah, it is so interesting. But yeah, then you're like, you said, like, there's so a lot of them, they're so down to earth, like, they just, they don't think. They're not usually not super cocky, like, and they're not insecure, because they're just, this is who they are, and they're just being themselves.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, there's. Of relatability, right? Like in the best in the Best Artist to fan relationship. You know, as an artist, you see yourself in the audience the same way the audience sees themselves in you. And someone like Lemmy. You know, you look at Lemmy and you're like, I could be like, let me, you know, like, he's down to earth. I'm down to earth. He says funny things. Maybe I say funny things, and that's what makes them like, you know, the superstars, like, we got a, you know, a person with, like, a rock star ego, and you're like, Oh, okay. You're like, great at the guitar. And like, yeah, you're like, a guy, and you get on the stage and you wear the clothes, and you say the things like, that's cool, you know. But when you meet someone where it's like, oh, you're all that, and and you're just a dude like, Whoa. That's, that's where I think the, that's the magic of it, you know,
Chuck Shute:right? But then it's so interesting too, because then some people, they don't really have that persona or or, like magnetism, but they're so fascinating as artists, and they create such amazing work. Like, I just think of like, you know, Maynard from perfect circle, who you're going to be performing with and tool, and he actually lived, I don't know if he still does, but he did live. I'm in Phoenix, Scottsville area, but he lived in a town called Jerome that was, like two hours from here. Is a tiny, little town, and he lived there for some reason it was so weird. And I remember like, asking the locals like, oh, did you ever see like, main around this one girl? She was, like, a waitress. Like, Yeah, that guy used to come in here, like, every day, and I didn't know he was, like, a big thing, like, I just he was very quiet. He was kind of weird, and, like, I would serve him coffee, and we didn't say much, and I didn't know who he was like. And so that I find it fascinating. There's people the other end of the spectrum too, but are also very famous, very successful, very amazing artists,
Cliff Rigano:yeah, yeah. And to your point, right? Like, it's always interesting when, when you see folks where, like, the talent shines through, first, you know, somebody that's somewhat unassuming, and then all of a sudden they sing, and you're like, you have that voice, you know, or they play the guitar like they're, you know, 100 years older than they are, and they lived a life that, you know, that they haven't lived. You're like, where? Where's that coming from? And you're like, No, that's me. And you're like, Well, my God, that's just something that's, that's crazy. So, yeah, like the magnetism, the raw magnetism, is an appeal. But yeah, when you are talented, there's no, there's no denying it, you know, because some people, you know, you can have that magnetism, but maybe you're not so good on the instrument, and you rely a little bit more on that.
Chuck Shute:You know, that's like a David Lee Roth, I'm thinking is more it's like, it's all personality with him,
Cliff Rigano:yeah, you know, I mean, again, you know, it's just, it's just, it's so it's just such an interesting dynamic when you're in front of folks to see how unique they are. And to your point, maybe even more, you know, interesting are the moments where they're not on stage on camera, and they're like, just the quiet person in the back of the cafe that's like, Why is that guy come in here every day? And it's like, because this is the only place he can go and just sit like a normal person that doesn't get recognized. He probably is thrilled to be considered weird. Like, yeah, I'm just a weird, quiet guy. Totally fine. You could be, I could be that here, happy to be that here, you know, right?
Chuck Shute:Yeah, there's definitely those, like, those levels of fame. Like, I What was that, I think I was talking to, like, was it Alice Cooper's guitar player, Ryan Roxy, about that? Like, because, you know, yeah, oh, you know. I mean, he's like, super nice guy, but I was like, saying, like, do you ever get recognized? He's like, Yeah, like, the day of the concert, like, you know, near the fans, of course, they're like, Oh, you you know, like, they think they're this big thing, you're on stage and stuff. He's like, but then other times, like, just, you know, regular places, like, nobody, you know he, he's kind of in between, whereas, like, like, Alice Cooper, like, you know he, I saw him at the mall here in Phoenix, and I was like, That's Alice Cooper. Like, I mean, he can't go to the mall without somebody's gonna write, somebody like me, like a nerdy rock fan is gonna recognize him, for sure. Yeah.
Cliff Rigano:I mean, yeah, he's, yeah, he's still Alice Cooper. You know what? I mean? Like, yeah, right here. That's that. That's the best line to walk, is when you experience that level of fame, but you're not beholden to it. In a way. It's traps, you, you know, so, yeah, that's, that's the best life to live is when you can experience it, but not be, you know, chained to it, yeah?
Chuck Shute:Because you guys have a lot of, I mean, you have, like, I think it was like a quarter million followers on Spotify or something, something like that. I was like, holy cow, that's a huge following,
Cliff Rigano:yeah? I mean, especially for a band that, you know, if I had to put us on a tech timeline, began at cassette tapes and ended at MySpace. You know, they didn't have YouTube when we stopped making, you know, music, it didn't exist. So to your point, like the idea that a quarter million people every month are streaming four songs every time they listen, 20 years after that record came out, I don't Okay, like, that's amazing. I don't know how to feel about that, because I just we never operated in a world where that was possible, you know. And it's funny, because I look at those things, and my knee jerk reaction is, where were all of you guys when we were playing to 50 people, you know? And. And every answer, generally, is something to the effect of, I was seven, you know, or my dad's car, I was in high school, or, like, I wasn't born yet, you know. So it's rare when people are like, Oh, I don't know, I missed you the first time, most people are like, well, we just found out about you. And then that's like, wow. Well,
Chuck Shute:that's the thing I think what I remember being a kid and buying and, you know, I used to buy a lot of CDs. I was a huge music fan, but I couldn't buy every CD. So I think that's the one thing that I know. Artists don't like the streaming because they don't make as much money from it, but it does help fans discover a lot of bands. There's a lot of music that I've discovered through streaming that I just never would have been able to discover because I just could not buy all those CDs. But now, if I find a band that I like, then I go support them. I'll have them on my show. I will go to their concert, I'll buy their merch. I'll, you know, I'm the guy. I'll buy the T shirts and stuff, you know, because I want to support them. Yeah?
Cliff Rigano:I mean, I'll be honest, I am a much bigger fan of music is a utility, that music is a commodity. I just think that, you know, music is like water. It's like lights. Turn it on when you want to turn it off when you don't. If you rely on the idea that this is a commodity and you're going to have to own everything you ever want to experience, you don't have enough. Nobody hasn't even at $1 a song. It's an untenable business model if you are a voracious consumer of music. So this whole streaming thing, it's like, you know, listen, universal is making just enough money on Drake and the weekend and Kendrick Lamar, so like, stream is paying somebody, you know, that's where it's like, I think that when artists, you know, knee jerk reaction into streaming is bad, no money. I'm like, Yeah, well, let's take a look at the fine print and the deal to understand where the money's going. Because, yeah, there's, there's a percentage of the pie, right? There's no per stream amount. It's a percentage of the pie that's distributed to all of the people in the pie. So, you know, just again, it's like, this idea of, if I work and I work and I get these numbers up and I get these things going, they can pay out over time, and then it just continues. It's not that one time hit of hey, I sold one CD. I got to sell another CD, I got to sell another CD. I just need to put it up and just let you go, and then just continue to make you want it. It's a much different exercise it feels like from a marketing perspective. So I'm just fascinated by the comparison. And again, you know, I understand if you were successful in an old model, and now you have a new model, and it's not the same. I get the difference. Again, it's no indictment. I haven't been successful in any model. So who am I to have any opinions about what you should or should not feel at any given instance? But I do think it is fascinating. Just feels like there's untapped potential now to be successful, whereas before, yeah, you know, the business was just a little bit harder
Chuck Shute:to break, right? It's like you said, there was those gatekeepers, which is so and, and it's the same thing with, like, podcasting, because it's like, I couldn't have started a, you know, if I guess I could have tried to do a radio show back in the 90s or something, I would have to go get on some local channel and hope that enough people see it in my town, and then try to work my way through go to all these radio I mean, I saw that Howard Stern movie, like, how what he had to do, like, but now I could just get on, turn on the camera, and I can stream out to the entire world. I mean, not the entire not everyone's gonna watch it, but, but then the problem is, everybody can do that. So now I'm competing with all these other people, they're doing the same thing.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And then the question becomes, how much harder Are you willing to work than everybody else? And I'm not saying you Right, no, the Royal you Right. Like, you know, like when you're in that moment where everything's democratized and you're all at the starting line and everybody's going to run the race, how fast are you? You know, how long will you run for? And that this becomes the exercise of like, you know, we it took us seven years to get to our first record deal. You know, you think about putting in seven years into anything before the proverbial return. You know, today's world, that's a long time to invest in something so but that's the exercises that you have to put in the time. And maybe it's shorter now, maybe it's 12 months, 16 months, two years, I don't know, but, and maybe that's the benefit of this new model, is that you don't have to spend seven years bleeding a dream, but you do have to spend some amount of time bleeding a dream. It's that part I don't think is ever going to change. So that's the part where it's like, yeah, it's just exciting, because you don't have to go through like, I gotta find a radio station. Then I have to be beholden to the radio station is going to do the right amount of marketing. And then I have to be beholden to the idea that there's enough people in town that know about me and this show that they're going to tune in. And then I have to be make sure that they like what they hear when they finally do tune in. And I gotta wait for the radio and I gotta make sure that right, like, all that's gone, it's like, turn them like, talk to people, see the reaction, do something different, or do the same thing again. Like that, to me, is much cooler than the previous, right, but it comes with its own set of circumstances. Nothing in life is easy,
Chuck Shute:yeah. The thing with a podcasting is, like, it's different, because I feel like if you're if you have any sort of level of celebrity, like. Guys from cheers started a podcast. So, like, immediately they have more subscribers than me because they're building on their reputation. So, and I think that could be the same in a way with music, like, if they have some sort of reputation in the past, it's got a jump start over a band that's starting from nothing. Yeah,
Cliff Rigano:absolutely. And listen, I'll be honest, the way that I've always looked at it is, the harder you work, the luckier you get. You know, that's That's it. You know, people always say, oh, you know, you got that one in a lifetime. You know, you were working as a Starbucks barista. And then all of a sudden, some guy came in and said, Hey, I like you. I'm going to give you the drug job of your dreams. And that's just, you know, lightning in a bottle, and it's like, no, I worked every shift I could at that Starbucks. I took overtime, I came in when I was sick. I just busted my ass. I didn't even recognize this guy, but this guy came in and saw me because I was there. I wasn't even a good mood when he saw me, but he just saw me. And that like, you can't replace that part. So the fact that you worked hard, then you got lucky because you worked hard there. It's like, it seems you cannot have you have to increase
Chuck Shute:the odds significantly. I mean, doing these interviews, that's what I've I've learned by putting yourself like the hard work, and then also, like a lot of it for music too, is being in the or at least it used to be. I don't know if this is still a big thing, but, but a lot of the musicians will move to cities where there's a music scene. Like, if you live in Cleveland, you're probably not gonna make it until, unless you move to LA or New York or now Nashville and Vegas has kind of got a little bit of a scene going now. And so these other bigger towns, for sure, yeah, I mean,
Cliff Rigano:and that's the part that I'm kind of interested in too, because it's like, you know, I come from that world of like, you got to move somewhere to make it somewhere, right? You have to go where the big clubs are, the big radio station or the big editorial outlet, you know, whatever, New York LA, you know, the stories of moving to Hollywood to make it, but now it seems like in a social setting, and again, I'm not a backpack rapper, I'm not a SoundCloud rapper. I'm not a, you know, an internet star or an island boy, or any of these things. But it doesn't feel like you need to do that anymore. If you are starting in the social stratosphere. It's almost a point of pride to be from, like, East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, with 7 million followers, and you've got some it song on tick tock. It's like, yeah, I didn't move anywhere. I moved from the living room to the basement.
Chuck Shute:Biggest YouTuber, Mr. Beast is, like, he was from like, Cleveland, or some Ohio or Indiana or something like small town. Just did most of it out of his bedroom, and he became the biggest YouTubers, crazy,
Cliff Rigano:seriously. And that's like, you know, model, predictive model of success. Like, you don't do that. So maybe that's where it's all headed. And again, I just, I'm just so fascinated by the difference and just the different ways that people become successful today, that I'm just, I find myself a constant, like, observation of, like, Oh, how did this happen? Like, look at this thing. I think it's all, how did it happen? Just tell me how it happened. Show me how it happened. I'm just so interested in the backstory. And then you read about backstory. Like, awesome. So what are you going to do now? You know what I mean, like, what comes next? Like, okay, lightning in a bottle. Boom. How do you do it again? So I'm just, I'm just, it's like, it's just always good to learn. I think,
Chuck Shute:yeah, it seems like a lot of times too, there's some sort sometimes, not every time, but a lot of times there could be some sort of gimmick or branding. Like, because you mentioned Slipknot, and that made me think of like, remember, they had the masks and stuff, like, when they first came out, that was very unique. There wasn't a lot of bands doing that, so they stood out.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, oh, you're right, and you see it, I think today, again, not the same approach, because it shouldn't be doing anything that everybody else is doing. But the theater, you know, metal, I think is really interesting. The ice ghost, the motionless invite, the ghost, the avatars. You know, there is this, this theater in the production and in the live show elements. And that's another thing that I think is so interesting. Like, you don't need a ton of money to have a really visually stimulating show, and then that has a lot of work too. I mean, again, and like, everything has to run to a click. You know, there's movement and motion between samples and starts and stops, and you know, if you miss one click, the background doesn't work anymore. Now your lighting cues are off, and it's like this whole symphony of movement that has nothing to do with the music, but has everything to do with the music. But like you see these groups, and I'm just so fascinated by their shows, it's, you know, you said it earlier, you know, talking about, like, how tool used to be one of the most mysterious and visually stimulating live shows, because they use lights and they use costumes, and they just represented themselves in shadows and all of these different ways, and it feels like a more modern version of that with a lot of the artists today and their live shows. And I'm here for it. I think it's awesome.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I think they have to be. They have to up their game with the live show, because they're not making any money on the record. So it's like, okay, so we got to make these, some of these ticket prices. Are you? They're out of control. So it's like, it better be a pretty damn good show. Yep. And
Cliff Rigano:then you pay all the money for that, and then all your money goes to pay for the show. So what's left? Paid meet and greets everybody? Yeah,
Chuck Shute:yeah. No, I the mean, greets. It's so interesting. I feel like there's a lot of podcasters that I'm like, I watch a lot of podcasts because I'll do research on the guests that I'm having on. And I watch a lot of podcasts, and I feel like a lot of podcasts. I'm like, Dude, you should just have a paid meet and greet. Like, you, I don't know why you're doing a podcast. Like, it's like, it's so interesting to see that though.
Cliff Rigano:You know, I yeah, I really enjoy comedy podcasts, and I think one of the ones that I that I really like is the Matt and Shane secret podcast. And I noticed that they do a lot of stuff. Like, they have a pat Patreon. So like, they'll do a free podcast, and then they'll move a lot of that conversation over to the Patreon. So to your point, like, what is that line of free versus paid content? Like, where do you kind of monetize some of that long form stuff? So yeah, it's a really interesting proposition, because, again, they have a huge fan base. Fans are into the idea. They're not offended by the idea that they want to be part of an exclusive club to get exclusive humor. So again, like you're making available the exact amount of demand, you know, supply that your audience is demanding. And I think that that's fair market commerce. You know, if you have an audience that wants to get, like, time with you, and you just don't have the time to do it, and this is how it needs to be done. And it's not offensive to anyone. Hey, God bless man. You know, because the demand is there, and as long as the demand is there, then it's okay to supply. It's only when you're supplying and there's no demand that it seems a little right one, you know what I mean?
Chuck Shute:Well, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of these bands are just, I think that because you say you're not in it to you guys have day jobs or, but I think for some they they want to make it their main thing, or, and they're trying just to make ends meet. I feel like it's tough, like, I know, like, I think anthrax had to cancel a bunch of their shows because it just wasn't going to make sense financially for them to tour at the way, the way that they were going, like, the prices or something. So they just had to cancel the whole tour. I mean, it gets like, when you're one of those bands that's like, you're not, you know, Taylor Swift or whatever, but like, you know you're you should have enough of a following, you're trying to make a professional living. It's it gets tough nowadays,
Cliff Rigano:oh and again. And that's why I don't begrudge anyone that does it. And that was the caveat earlier. It's just like, hey, listen, you know, if, if you're out there working, you know, and we all know that touring is a very expensive proposition, especially when you're doing it in scale, and you're doing multiple shows in a row, and you're out on the road, and those are real hard costs that only continue to go up. So, you know, money has a ceiling. It's a you know, you have to, you know, you have to pay for something, you have to not pay for something somewhere else. So all of it makes sense to me. And again, it's just a matter of, you have fans that are interested in that type of, you know, content and conversation. So it's like, I, dude, I would love to have a picture with you, and I understand everything like this is reasonable. Let's do it again. I think it's fair. We're just sensitive that, you know, we're not at that point. And I don't think anybody at this stage, after 20 years, should have to come to the first show and pay for much of anything, especially time with a band that they haven't seen in, you know, a couple of decades, if we're on the road all the time, and there's a level of exclusivity that comes along with that type of meet and greet that's I begrudging no one for that behavior. I just think for us, it's not the right fit right now, but yeah,
Chuck Shute:because, I mean, you're you're also like, they're helping you out by if they post a picture with you and post that on social media, it's free advertising for the band.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah. I mean, God, and to think anybody even wants a picture with us after all this time, it's, it's humbling, to be fair, like I don't, I'm surprised anybody wants a picture with
Chuck Shute:us. I mean, the quarter million followers on Spotify, that's a lot of people.
Cliff Rigano:Yeah, no, I, you know, we're just, we're very grateful for, for everybody that's, you know, still continued with the band. It's there's a lot to consume in this world, and the fact that you spend any of your time consuming us after all of this time, it's humbling. That means something. It's not lost on us, that in a world of content, you you you want to hear a dry kill. That's awesome, and we appreciate that.
Chuck Shute:Very cool. Well, the new song is out now and then, should people, I'm not sure is our website, I can put in the show notes. Or just what's the best way to follow?
Cliff Rigano:I kill logic on all the socials is the best way to find us. We're pretty active on that. Spotify. Dry kill is, you know, where you find all the music. And, you know, we have a.com but it's not a special property in the sense of, you know, over overriding anything we're doing on social, we're
Chuck Shute:there far more. And then the show, show dates will be on all that stuff to them. Yeah, yeah, perfect. Okay, well, thank you so much for doing this. Anything else to promote?
Cliff Rigano:No, man, that's it. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it big. Thanks to everybody for listening, and I hope to see you soon in an upcoming show, we'll get as close to. As we can, I don't know when, but hopefully when we come to town in Arizona, we'll see you soon.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, let me know I'll be here. Awesome. Okay, see ya later. Man, you
