Chuck Shute Podcast
In depth interviews with musicians, comedians, authors, actors, and more! Guests on the show include David Duchovny, Billy Bob Thornton, Mark Normand, Dee Snider, Ann Wilson, Tony Horton, Don Dokken, Jack Carr and many more.
Chuck Shute Podcast
Jeff Garmire, Hiking Record Holder Discusses Bear Attack, Psychology of Hiking & More!
Jeff Garmire is an endurance athlete, author and podcaster. He holds many FKTs (fastest known times) on hiking trails. In this episode we discuss the Arizona Trail, the challenges and logistics of hiking, including the best times of year, the importance of water and food, and the psychological aspects of long-distance hiking. Jeff shares experiences with wildlife encounters, the impact of altitude, and the transition back to civilization. We also touch on the philosophy of pushing oneself, the benefits of discomfort, and the importance of planning and preparation. Jeff also mentions ongoing projects like coaching, a podcast, and a branded meal product.
00:00 - Intro
00:12 - Arizona Trail Record & Submission Process
01:44 - Best Time to Hike the Arizona Trail
03:47 - Average Hiking Time & Speeds
05:59 - Gear & Sleep Deprivation
09:39 - Psychology & Motivation
14:46 - Thoughts & Reflections During Hikes
24:34 - Movie "Wild" & Growth
26:50 - Learning Skills from Hiking
28:35 - Transitioning Back to Civilization & Exercise
32:15 - Diet, Protein & Water Filtration
37:05 - Dangers of Hiking
44:25 - Future Plans & Sponsorship
46:43 - Outro
Jeff Garmire link tree:
https://linktr.ee/thefreeoutside
Chuck Shute link tree:
https://linktr.ee/chuck_shute
Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!
Let's go for it, yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate I I found your name because I was like, I'm kind of interested in doing the Arizona I'm in Arizona now, I was kind of interested in doing the Arizona Trail, and so then I looked it up, and I was like, only, like 20 people have actually done it, and you have the record, right?
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, yep, yeah. I think more have probably done it, but just not officially submitted it through whatever service or site, maybe. But so
Chuck Shute:how does that work? How do you officially, like submitted or whatever. Is there something like we have to sign a book at the beginning and then at the end as well, and is it kind of like just on your word?
Jeff Garmire:I think so. So the record's a lot more official with, like, tracking requirements and stuff like that. But as far as through hiking it, I think it is fairly unofficial. I sent in so sign the books along the way, and then sent in maybe like my trip report, because I usually write a blog on every day, or like a paragraph on what happened every day, just to remember it out there. And I sent that in and got a belt buckle from the Arizona Trail Association. So I think if you do catalog it and send it in, you get a belt buckle for, I think it was like, 10 or 20 bucks. It was pretty cool. Wow,
Chuck Shute:does the news come out? Because then, like, I said, there's only 20 people that have recorded it. I mean, that's not very many. Like, I feel like that's kind of a big deal. Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:I think, Well, I think probably hundreds have done it and just not submitted it like that. So I don't know. I think, yeah, I'm not sure how many people have done it. I know there's quite a few people doing it every spring or fall. So it's got to be more than 20, just maybe 20 through their site that have trip reports up or something. I'm not sure
Chuck Shute:is that the best time to do it the spring or fall? Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, summer can just be hot if you're in Arizona, you know, yeah, you want to. So in the spring, you're likely to hit some snow in north of Flagstaff on the Kaibab plateau, and even down south, just snow off and on, depending on what when you start. And then in the fall, you're kind of pushing up against that monsoon season, or rain or mud, or it can be colder, and then some of the sections have less water because the springs have used up all their water throughout the summer and haven't been replenished by the winter. So you're kind of choosing between maybe a little colder and snow or possibly less water and an early start to winter, in the mud season and stuff. So neither one's perfect, but they're, they're both equally good. Yeah, and
Chuck Shute:you've done, because you've done so many other major hikes, like this was Arizona, is it kind of one of the more boring ones? Like, because it's, I heard it's mostly through just desert, like, they didn't put it through all the cool like Does, does even go through the Grand Canyon or Sedona, or all the cool parts of Arizona. It
Jeff Garmire:goes right through the Grand Canyon. It's actually my favorite through hike. So, oh, really, yeah, it's uh, because it, it goes through a lot of desert. But in between, you go across sort of the sky islands, like four miles from the border. If you start in the south, you hit Miller peak. So you go way up into the mountains, then you drop down, and then you climb up again into Mount mica, through Saguaro National Park, and then you drop down again and go over Mount lemon. So you're continually going up and down. It's there's some hard climbs and stuff, but in the middle section through maybe north of Tucson, a little bit near Oracle. It can be kind of deserty, but it changes enough that I really like the trail. It's enough easy miles combined with some hard miles out there too.
Chuck Shute:Okay, interesting. So, and they said, like, the average time for this one is, like, for most people, it's like 50 days, but you did it, and was it, what was it like, 15 or something?
Jeff Garmire:I think 15. Yeah, that's insane. So,
Chuck Shute:so what if it was 50 days for most people? How many miles is that a day average compared to what you did? Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:that would be so it's roughly 800 miles. So 50 days would be maybe 16 miles a day, about,
Chuck Shute:okay, that's reasonable. So then how did you you did it in 15 so I gotta do the math on that. One 800 divided by that's like you did like, 53 miles a day.
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, exactly. Yep.
Chuck Shute:Are you running in this trap like that? That's a lot of miles.
Jeff Garmire:So you're really, yeah, you're targeting like, three and a half miles an hour, and almost all the time that you're moving, or all the time you're awake, have it be productive moving time. So you're combining average pace with hours of hiking. And then so that would be so three miles an hour and 18 hours, that would be 54 miles a day. So that's kind of the. Math that you're going for. And really the biggest thing is eliminating the inefficiencies of spending time sipping coffee at camp. And you're not going for comfort or the normal through hike. You're going for speed. So it's a very different style than when I've through hiked trails. Oh,
Chuck Shute:okay, yeah, because if I did it, I would, I would definitely not go for speed. I don't, I don't think, no, you should enjoy it, yeah? So when you do it for speed, or even just when you do it Rayleigh, because, like, I saw the movie that where you did the other was that that was Appalachian Trail, I think, yeah, Colorado. Okay, it's not the same, okay, so it's actually called the Colorado trail. Yeah, it was in Colorado. It's beautiful. The cinematography in that movie is amazing. People should check it out. But, like, you didn't have much, because I'm comparing it to, like, wild, that movie with Reese Witherspoon, and she's got the giant backpack, you know, and she's doing the PCT, and you've just got this tiny little backpack. I'm like, could you even fit? I don't think did they even ever show in the movie, like, how you set up a tent? Did you set up a tent? Or you just use, like a blanket, a sleeping bag and a pillow. Or what did you How did you sleep?
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, I just had a tarp, so it's got no bug net, no floor, but it protects because it did snow one day and it rained another day out there, so I wanted some protection on the Colorado trail at least. So I just had this thin tarp, and then I had a sleeping bag under it, and then I may have had a ground sheet I made nod of I may have just laid down my rain gear as the floor there, but yeah, it's not you're really just trying to get the least amount of stuff that you need to effectively sleep. So once again, you're giving up comfort. And usually I'll hike with a much more substantial and nicer tent, but this was just a thin tarp that used my trekking pole and a couple stakes to stake it out, and then it was only sleeping three or four hours a night. So it wasn't, wasn't luxury, for sure, no pillow on this one, only three or four hours a night. Yeah, yeah, because that was hard. It was a it's called unsupported, so I had to carry all my food from the start to the finish. And so that was nine days of food. So I was maximizing food space in my pack and minimizing space for anything else. So and moving with 30 pounds on your back is a little harder than when normally it might be 20 pounds, so I could only sleep three or four hours a night, because I had to have all those hours of moving in order to get the record there. Damn.
Chuck Shute:So what do you typically require? Because some people, like, I heard like Bill Clinton only slept five hours a night. So I mean, some people just have this, like, they don't need a lot of sleep. Do you typically only need four or five hours of sleep anyways? Are you is this like you're changing your body for these hikes?
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, I like six to seven usually, but that's still on the lower end. But on these hikes, you're giving up a lot of, yeah, comfort. You're going into such sleep deprivation that you're hallucinating by the end of it. It's a wild ride out there. So hallucinating,
Chuck Shute:like, literally, like you're, I think you said that in the film you saw, what did you you saw something. It was kind of more like a mirage, though, right? Like, you're not like, seeing pink elephants and crazy shit, like psychedelic stuff, right?
Jeff Garmire:Some, sometimes I've only had that, well, actually, on the Arizona Trail in the north when I was going for the record the last night, I was so tired, and it was a full moon, so the moon shadows were really messing with me, and I was so tired that I was seeing witches. So pretty full on hallucinations of witches. The trees had turned into witches holding their broom up. It was very weird. It's happened a couple times where it's that vivid. Usually it's just like shimmers, like Mirage things where you can tell it's not real, but it looks pretty real in the moment. So yeah, I don't know how healthy it is, but you're putting your mind through quite a lot by eliminating sleep and still pushing 50 plus miles a day. Holy shit.
Chuck Shute:So when you see the witches and stuff, like, do you have to, like, tell yourself, okay, this isn't real, or do you just really think it's real? And you freak out?
Jeff Garmire:At the beginning, it was a little weird. You have to have a conversation in your mind, like, these aren't real. It's okay. But after now that it's happened a few times, when it happens, I'm pretty aware that it's not real, and you can kind of justify it, but, yeah, it's just your mind playing playing tricks on you with that little sleep. Well, yeah, that's
Chuck Shute:one aspect that I'm so fascinated by that you don't really touch on too much in the book or the film. Is just the psychology behind all this stuff. Because, I mean, you got to be a little crazy to do this, right? And then, but I did hear you say in an interview that you kind of you think this guy, you think David Goggins is is full of shit, right? What do you mean by that? Like you said off the cuff, you didn't, you didn't really follow up on it. I don't know if you're joking or because I mean that guy pushes his mind, and that seems to be what you're doing, too, with the mental tough. And physical toughness?
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, no, I think he has good elements and pushes himself too. I think that's in common. I think there is this line of you can push really hard right now, or you can push hard for the next week, and you can't do both for the most part. So I think he's really in that moment of, like, push hard. That's why he has, like, the pull up record and in the in route to getting that, he failed like two or three times, and one time he pushed so hard, like the muscle detached from his bone pushing so hard. So I think it's just maybe a different style or philosophy of if you want to push hard over a long period of time you can't ever push to that maximum at one initial instance. I also think the hard thing with David Goggins is he's really good on motivating people to get out there and do hard things. I also think that comes with a lot of injury risk, and it kind of eliminates that going into something smartly and planning it out so that your body's ready to do it, sometimes aiming for that goal, or he does that four by four by 48 if you haven't run in 10 years and want to do that this weekend, it's like that injury risk is really high versus I coach athletes too, and it's more like, let's put a realistic time frame on it, like maybe It's working up to it over a month, so that your body can handle it, you enjoy it a little more, and the injury risk is a lot lower. So I think that's mostly the the difference in philosophy. I respect that he pushes really hard. I don't have anything against that. I just like pushing where you can't see the end in sight, where the end is nine days away, and you have to hold this level of pushing that's barely sustainable for a week rather than for a day,
Chuck Shute:right? Yeah. I mean, I think that he is like, like, there's like, the David Goggins level and like, I would just love to be like, like, 20 or 30% of that low. I don't want to be like, That crazy where I'm like, Yeah, because He even talks about, in the book where he's like, he, uh, not even the pull up thing, but the, I think it was a leg injury or knee injury or something that he, like, busted his knee, and he kept going. I was like, Okay, this is just insanity. Like, I don't see the point of pushing through after you've injured yourself, like you're gonna cause permanent damage like that just doesn't seem smart to me.
Jeff Garmire:Totally. Yeah. I think the biggest thing is, you want to be able to do these hard things and push yourself for years, not just one time. And I think he does have a ton of injuries now, sort of from that philosophy, which is, yeah, it's very inspirational, motivating. It's also a little bit against the long term nature of being able to do these sports as well, right?
Chuck Shute:I just think some I would say a majority of Americans need to be more like David Goggins, more like yourself, like they need to push through this. And I mean, I heard you, I did hear you talk about that, putting yourself in uncomfortable situations and that that's and now you start to kind of like, crave that, right? That's the same with Goggins. Talks about comfort zones or poison and and pushing yourself. So, I mean, everybody could do a little bit more of that. We don't need to go full Goggins, but, yeah, I mean, I think that you're a perfect example of you pushed yourself, and you've got these records and things. But I mean, from what I can tell you haven't done any permanent damage. I mean, I did see the blister thing in the movie that was pretty gross. But,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, I love the quote that adventure or life begins at the edge of your comfort zone, which is, like, is how I like to think of it, is every time you push that a little bit further, and then eventually that comfort zone is a lot bigger, and you're pushing further and further and doing more intense things. But I think jumping like 10 miles outside of your comfort zone is both recipe for failure or injury or disappointment, whereas I think there's pretty calculated and cool approaches, like, say, someone wants to run a marathon, and then they want to run a 50 mile race and then 100 mile race. It's those stepping stones, and I like to call them unlocking mileage, or unlocking a mindset that's really cool to adopt, because then you think about things like a marathon as pretty attainable to do on a Saturday, versus maybe years ago, that was impossible, but moving that way makes it fit into life a little more sustainably and be something that you can continually revisit, versus off the couch. Running like 100 miler may be possible, but it may ruin the experience. You may never want to do it again, because you go to such depths that if you do it more sustainably, you can revisit that experience and continue to have it and push hard, just as hard as your body can handle, but rebound in order to do it again. Yeah.
Chuck Shute:So what's going through your mind when you're doing these long hikes that Arizona or the Colorado trail, Appalachian or PCT like? I mean, you're by yourself a majority of the time your hike. You're walking with whether it's for speed or if you're doing it for not for speed, but either way, you're you're walking by yourself. Like, what do you listen to podcasts or, like, do you just listen to nature? Do you have your thoughts? I mean, you must have a lot of thoughts that go through your head, right? So
Jeff Garmire:many thoughts. I think that's why I enjoy it. I could spend all day in my in
Chuck Shute:my hate my thoughts. So you like your thought. You have positive thoughts, or,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, positive negative thoughts. You learn to accept your thoughts. You can think through all sorts of things. I mean, there is the backup of you can put in music or podcasts, and often in, especially in these speed records at night, I'll put in, like, music or something. It just keeps a little bit more focused. But yeah, listening especially morning and dusk, when the animals are moving the most or hear the birds chirping, there's like this magical time when you've gone through a full night on one of these record attempts, and the birds start chirping just before it gets light. And that's just like this magical feeling of like it's going to be a new day, the sun's going to come up, you get to turn off your headlamp. You're going to feel reinvigorated by the morning light. So, yeah, I think you just focus on those little victories throughout the day, or even, like you're hungry and you have this food you really are interested in. You can have that on a through hike or something, you get to a view. There's all these little victories that are so natural just from pushing your body at the same time as getting to be in nature that it feels like a very natural setting. And yeah, you're also going through your mind. You're thinking about where the next water is if you're eating enough, how your feet feel if you need to tape up a blister where you're going to camp like there's endless logistics that can be going through your head, but also the ability to sit with your thoughts and think through things like the Arizona Trail. You could be out there and you go through in the Superstition Mountains just west of Phoenix. You go through this area where a guy had an orchard for like, 50 years, or something, kind of in the middle of the of nowhere on one of these sky islands. And you just can think about, like, what it must have been. He just lived up here alone 100 years ago, grew apples, took him down to town every couple weeks or month or so. And I don't know you can just put yourself in that, like on the Pacific Crest Trail, I loved thinking about how people crossed all this area and covered wagons and stuff like that. Or on the Continental Divide Trail, you go through a lot of the Lewis and Clark history. I love just thinking about that and imagining that, of course, you have better gear and maps and they didn't know anything going on, but you're basically in the same terrain that looks fairly similar. And it's a pretty cool thing to connect back to 200 years ago, even though you got a huge leg up by having a lighter gear by far, and not wearing just pants that are waterlogged. Probably,
Chuck Shute:yeah, that's really true. That's interesting. So it's it's kind of like you're more in the moment and thinking strategically you're not able, is, are you just not even things on your mind, like the bullshit that we deal with in everyday life, like you're not thinking about some stupid thing you said, or an ex girlfriend, or like a fight you had with a co worker, like all the bullshit that we always think about, that stuff is not going through your mind or worrying about what you're going to do in the future, the you're just really more in the moment, rather than thinking to the Future Past. Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:I'd say very in the moment. I mean, you can work through some of that stuff on an X relationship or something, if you want. You have this endless swath of time to think that you can use however you want. And I think that's what's so cool. I like trying to be in the moment by finding something stimulating in the landscape or the history or the terrain. But, yeah, you can use it. I think that's what's so appealing, is you don't have to worry about emails or a to do list. It's very simple. It's, where am I going to camp? When am I going to eat? When am I going to get water? And it pretty much comes down to that, and then taking care of your body so that you can get to the end. It's, it's just a very simple goal of every day you're going to cover some miles, and at the end of that, it's going to add up to doing a whole through hike. And I think that's the the valuable thing is, there's so few things in life where it takes there's no instant gratification. It's going to take weeks, probably, to finish a through hike that you can't really focus on getting through 800 miles. It's like, what's the next resupply? When? Where am I going to camp today? It's just very focusing on if I do things right today, then when I get to tomorrow, I'll do them right again, and that'll just equal my bigger goal. It just simplifies life into a very, I don't know, a very natural feeling of kind of how time and mileage passes. Yeah, I
Chuck Shute:think I wrote down the quote. You're kind of, you're kind of close to what you said before that. I wrote down that you said, this really cool. You said having one goal makes life hard but simple. I was like, Oh, wow, that's. So amazing. I love that. Yeah, it's so
Jeff Garmire:true. Yeah, you only have one thing to do, but it's a hard thing, but you can totally do
Chuck Shute:it, yeah, and that helps you kind of just make life easier. Because I think, did you talk about having depression or anxiety or stress in your life before you did these things, like because you were working in finance or something that
Jeff Garmire:seems stressful. Yeah, it was like 70 or 80 hour weeks, most mostly here, so very stressful. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:what's doing that? Or doing these crazy hikes, doing that you
Jeff Garmire:have so few like, what goals are you looking forward to? Maybe you get a raise. But that still means the next week you show up and work the same amount of hours and stuff versus the completion of a goal like the Arizona Trail. You get to the end, and you have something of substance, both physically and mentally, that you accomplish, that you get forever and it's accomplished and done most things. It's like you jump to the bigger next thing, versus just getting to sit with the Arizona Trail once you if you completed through hike like that, you could go do it again, but you did it like you, you accomplish your goal. It's not like you have to go do the next bigger thing. And
Chuck Shute:don't you feel more free when you're hiking, as opposed to when you're doing these when you're working in finance? Do you feel like trapped kind of because you're usually trapped in some sort of cubicle or office or
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, and your time's not yours when you're working in that situation too. Everything was billable hours, so you have to fill your day with however you're going to bill your hours and which clients projects you're working on. But then when you're through hiking, it's like today I want to cover 20 miles, and you can spend however those hours, however you want to accomplish that goal. If you're tired and want to take a nap at 10, you could do that. If you want to eat dinner at 3pm you can do that. You have this unlimited flexibility, but also this attainable goal at the end of every day. It's like you have all the power in your life. It's only on you, how you accomplish this or not accomplish it. That I think it's a very empowering thing, where it eliminates a lot of that dependence or frustration of someone else letting you down, because it really just depends on you and how you're going to attack the day. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:so you're mostly in control, although I did hear you talk a lot about in the book, about there's times where you need somebody to give you a ride, like you're hitchhiking and stuff. And sometimes at night, which is kind of scary, right? There's spots where you have to, you can't walk it or hike it. You got to get a ride from somebody.
Jeff Garmire:Well, yeah, so like the say, the Appalachian Trail. It'll cross a highway, and it's 10 miles into town. So you don't want to just hike that 10 miles, because you want to use those miles for actually moving on the trail. So you'll hitchhike into town, get food and whatever gear you need, or maybe you mailed yourself a box. Is what I do a lot of the time. You'll refill your pack with that, maybe get some more fuel for your stove, and then you'll hitch back to the trail, right to where you left off, and then you'll start going again. And so that's kind of the the method of resupplying along the route, because not all the towns are right on the trail. Some of them take a little work, especially out here. I live in Montana. A lot of the towns are quite a ways from the Continental Divide Trail out here.
Chuck Shute:Okay, so it's like, because that, how does that go with the rules? So it's okay to hit, like, into the town, because that's not technically part of the trail. It's not on the trail or something.
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, yeah. If I'm going for a record, it's a little bit different. Usually, you can't every record I've done in the style that I've done, you can't get in a vehicle or anything, and so you're pretty much self dependent on how you're going to resupply. But in a normal through hike, yeah, it's the goal is to hike every step. They usually call it connected footsteps, from the start to the finish of the trail. And sometimes you have to take that detour, oftentimes, pretty much every trail into resupply, and then you just go back out and connect your footprints together.
Chuck Shute:Okay, so it's a detour. It's off the trail, go into town, get supplies or whatever, and then go back. It's not, there's not stops along the way of the trail. No,
Jeff Garmire:often not, you go through a few towns, but often you have to hitch into town because you're just crossing a highway in the middle of nowhere or something, okay?
Chuck Shute:And, like, because, like, in that movie Wild, she goes to one of those things. What are those things? Like the ranger stations? It's got, like, the mailboxes and stuff. And,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, I'm not sure. I don't remember, yeah, like, but when it came out in like, 2016 it's been a while. I didn't know there was a pre homework for this thing.
Chuck Shute:No, that's, I think that's why I started thinking about this stuff too, because I was re watching that movie. I like to sometimes, when I'm feeling like, not motivated, I'll watch movies like that where it's like, it really is motivating. Like that one, she did the PCT, and, you know, I don't know if she's done other. Hike since then, not as many as you, I don't think. But, I mean, it was kind of a cool story that I think when I first saw that movie, though I never knew that people did this, I was like, what? Like, she hiked this far. This is like crazy to me, but I guess there's a lot of people that do it. Totally,
Jeff Garmire:yeah. And I started out 2011 I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail with no knowledge of anything kind of similar to her. I had a 55 pound pack, way too much gear. And the cool thing about that is you start with basically no knowledge, and as you progress up the trail, you get more and more knowledge. Maybe you get better gear. You're better equipped, but you just see yourself becoming, I like to that hike. I kind of became an adult. I was just like, 20 years old, and then it's like, well, I have to make decisions on how much food I'm carrying, because I will be in the middle of nowhere with no food if I mess this up. So it's very empowering to start with nothing like that. And you learn along the trail, you'll dev I mean, everyone makes mistakes out there, but it's just learning from those and not making them again, because once you run out of water and don't have it for a couple hours, you'll never go without extra water again, because that's one of the harder feelings. But I think that's what's so beneficial, is the consequences are very rarely death or anything too serious, but it's mostly like a bunch of discomfort. So you're getting this chance to learn and progress as a person out there as well, I think, which is why wild is so good, and why the book, especially so well written, is it's this journey through life of becoming a different person, in conjunction with hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, which I think everyone goes through in their in their own way, especially on their first through hike.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. I mean, I do think that we grow from discomfort and and being alone and I mean, that's how we like you said you became an adult like you. Think more people, if more people did this, we'd have less problems in the world today.
Jeff Garmire:Oh yeah, I think everyone would make better use of even if they're already going to go to college, if they just went on a through hike before that, I think they'd learn a lot of these essential skills, from time management, like you only have 12 hours a daylight to hike if you just sit around and do nothing, it's not going to contribute to your goal, to shopping for yourself to you can't eat candy all day, or you'll feel awful. Like all these little, tiny examples add up to just like knowledge you kind of have to learn yourself that you can't listen to your parents. So I think in the formative years, like in 18 to early 20s, it could be so valuable, because you have total responsibility over your life, even just making the right turns and not like navigation and everything from your gear and stuff like that, that, I think it's just a really good way. Rather than in college, there's kind of the dorm and they'll cook your food in the cafeteria and stuff. It's just like this weird gap between high school and being an adult. And even if you do become an adult, it's usually now it's like, live with your parents, some build up, some money, move out. It's sort of just this thrust into the world. You figure it out, and you do, because most people are very capable of figuring this out. We just never put ourselves in situations where we're dependent on ourselves for figuring out food. It's pretty easy. We could just go to the store if we're hungry, versus out there, you better have planned it out correctly. Yeah.
Chuck Shute:Is it hard to transition back to like, civilization after you've been hiking for nine days, or however many days, or weeks, or whatever, that you've gone out, and then you go back and you're like, Okay, now I'm like, I'm in a regular, like house, and I have like stores, and it's like, totally different, right? Yeah, it's
Jeff Garmire:very it's very noisy. It's hard to figure out, like, your purpose, the clarity what you're doing and stuff. And if you go from through hiking or, yeah, having to finish miles every day, and then you're in an office, suddenly it's like, well, what's the point of finishing this, whatever this balance sheet or something? It's like, it feels like the purpose is totally lost compared to what I've been through. So it is a very difficult transition. I think that's where you have to as you're finishing that through hike, come up with a goal on how you're going to carry that mindset forward. Of maybe it's something with going to the gym or working out or putting a race on the calendar, or even like starting a podcast or writing a book or having a website, like it's just honing in on a passion and keeping that as part of your life, because for the weeks you're out there through hiking. I mean, I'd hope at least it's some part of your passion being out there. And so passion is like 100% of your life. So the goal is just keeping that passion as a portion of your life. Once you you do have to transition back to the real world, right?
Chuck Shute:So then how do you with the exercise? I would think, because, I mean, you're walking like basically 20. Hours a day then, I mean, do you do you do like, five hours on the treadmill now that you're back in civilization, or do you just kind of take a break from exercising?
Jeff Garmire:Um, yeah, I have, I exercise quite a bit, but not to the same, not five hours on the treadmill for sure. I would say trying to put, like, a backpacking trip every month on the calendar, something like that. And then for me, I coach athletes, which is pretty fulfilling, and helping them accomplish their goals. So that helps me have some purpose. And I really enjoy that aspect. But yeah, it can be really hard to figure that out. I think most people transition from through hiking into maybe running 30 minutes to an hour a day, just something where it's like this time that I'm out there jogging, or even if it's walking, that's your time every day. So maybe it's not 20 hours anymore, but it's still 30 minutes where you don't have to look at your phone, maybe wear headphones, maybe you don't, but it's like you still get to claim this amount of time for yourself, which I think is the one thing you leave the trail with, is knowing how empowering having all this time to yourself can be, and just maintaining some amount of that is pretty important for feeling fulfilled once you leave the trail. That's
Chuck Shute:amazing. I love it. Do you? But do you notice like that? You because, I think in one of the book or the movie, you said you lost like, 20 pounds and like, like, almost immediately, like, how did how good of a shape are you in at the end of these hikes? Like, do you just have, like, a six pack and stuff? Because, I mean, I would think 20 hours a day, like, You got to be in perfect shape. Oh,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, you have no arms, though you haven't used your arms too much that's afraid of Yeah, yeah. You could crank out some push ups and stuff, but, uh, yeah, you're in very good shape, especially endurance type shape. You've become very lean by the end of it. You're real good at hiking, maybe running, depending on what you're doing, but your body's pretty broken down too. So usually, after you quit couple weeks, your your feet kind of hurt because you're not having to use them anymore. Your body's kind of transitioning out of that, but right at the end, you're in very good shape. Interesting.
Chuck Shute:And then I always wonder, too, like, with the food, I think you've talked a little bit about this, how about, how do you get enough protein? I know is it just through the dehydrated meals. Because, like, if you're if you're eating, like, you know, carbs, like bread and snacks and oatmeal and things like that, like, that's not protein, but you can't, I mean, unless it's dehydrated, you can't really bring meat or less, I guess if it's beef jerky or something,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, it's a little different. Now, we never thought about it 15 years ago when I started with this, but now protein's pretty big, and I think there's some people will even have, like, protein powder at a scoop in the morning, something like that. You can do, yeah, beef jerky, all sorts of things. There's a number of like, tuna. A lot of people add tuna to some of their meals, so you can get some protein. I think you're definitely lacking in the protein, which is why you become so lean. Out there is you're just burning kind of a carb centric machine. But, yeah, the protein is a little bit harder. But I think there's, there's some methods a lot of people now having, like a recovery or protein shake to start their day, because it's just one scoop of powder, and they can have a week's worth of that in a bag. That seems to be a pretty good way for people to bounce back.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. And then what about with the water? That's kind of scary, too, because, like, some of the places it's like or most of the water that you come across is not just like ready to go. You have to clean it somehow, either with ultraviolet light or pills or filtration system, right?
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, yeah. Filters are far and away. The most common thing out there is you fill up your bottle or fill up your filter bag and filter it through the filter into your into your bottles, and then you're good to go. But people use like iodine out there too. I started with a steri pin, so that was UV light back a decade or so ago, but now I just use the filter for the most part. But yeah, some of these are even when you filter them, especially if they're heavily used by cows, it'll still smell and taste kind of bad. So people add, like a lemonade packet or something like that to their water as well. But yeah, these are not pristine sources all the time out there.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, what is So, what is it exactly? Because, like, especially Arizona Trail, I think that's got to be one of the worst ones, because it's all desert. So if you find water, it's, like, very rare. And then how long? Where is that water coming from? And what else is it used for? It doesn't sound like it's meant for hikers. And,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, they've built a couple that collect rain, and hikers can grab water from them, but you still need to treat that. Lot of them are shared with cows, and then you'll get some good streams out there too. But yeah, very much, shared with cows, I would say, for the most part. And it's on the Arizona Trail, maybe 10 to 20 miles is the distance between. Water sources. So that's carrying anywhere from three to five liters, probably at a time, which is about 12 pounds of extra, extra weight in just water on some of those longer sections. And if it's hot, maybe even more,
Chuck Shute:yeah. And so it, but it's it's safe, as long as you do the filtration right, because, but otherwise you're really sick if you don't filter right?
Jeff Garmire:Totally, yeah, yeah. If you filter it, you're you're good. If you don't, you're at risk for Giardia or something like that. What's that? It's, uh, it's a parasite where you'll throw up and have diarrhea for days on end, and usually it takes medication to clear up. So you don't want to treat drink untreated water with that in it.
Chuck Shute:Is that? What happened you in the movie? Because I know that you were talked about your digestive issues a lot in the film. And I was like, Damn, what? What caused this? I think
Jeff Garmire:that was altitude related. More so just being above 12,000 feet for hours on end and and while more so pushing myself at that altitude just was really hard. And usually when you get that high, your digestive system takes, I don't know, like 30 plus percent of your calories and energy. So when you're pushing that hard already at that altitude, it'll just shut off that, and your digestive system will be running at maybe, like half efficiency or something, and it won't want to consume any more food and altitudes a whole nother beast.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that is interesting. Like I went to, we were in Durango once, and we were at this hotel, and they had those, like, canisters of air for altitude sickness. But Durango is, like, probably one of the lower level things. So I was like, I don't, I don't think I need this. What is this for? But, yeah, I would assume what you did when you're literally up in the mountains and you're hiking, yeah, that would then, then it starts to get to you more. Yeah, totally.
Jeff Garmire:Your heart rate goes up because there's just less oxygen in the air, and you're still working just as hard that all, all sorts of things happen to your body with with altitude up there,
Chuck Shute:it what is the biggest? Is the biggest danger the weather, or is it more like nature? Because I think you said something about a grizzly bear changed you and one of these, on one of these hikes, right? Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:I've been charged by grizzly and moose and all sorts of stuff. I think it's probably weather or maybe even injury. I don't know. There's not a ton. It's never that hard to self extract or get to civilization out of these, like, if something really goes wrong, can usually figure it out, or there's often other hikers around, and sometimes you have, like, a satellite messenger or something can call for help. And yeah, there's never. There are instances of wildlife, but it's pretty rare where, especially a through hiker who's out there and pretty in tune to nature and what's going on. I live right by Yellowstone, and most the incidents are just tourists trying to get too close or mess with the wildlife, more than anything. So wildlife, literally,
Chuck Shute:up close, I've seen people chasing bear or, like, what are you trying to get a picture of, like, what are you doing? And they're going right up to this, like, moose or, sorry, I think it was a buffalo. I saw this guy getting real close to a buffalo. I was like, What are you doing? So when you had the grizzly bear Chase, you had what? What is the what are you supposed to do? Lay down or you're not supposed to run. I know that. Yeah, you're not. I
Jeff Garmire:had bear spray, so I've just I was a mom with two cubs, so she was just protective over cubs, and so the Cubs ran off into the bushes. She charged at me. It was a bluff charge, luckily. So about 1015, feet away, she stopped, and just was growling, and I just was slowly backing up, holding my bear spray ready to, I guess, use it if she came much closer. But then, I guess she heard her cubs get far enough away. I don't know. Time was kind of, uh irrelevant at that point. It felt like a long time staring face to face with the grizzly, but it was probably pretty quick, and then she eventually growled one more time, got up on her hind legs and then took off into the bushes to chase her cubs. So it was more to give her cubs time and like a warning, but luckily, luckily, it wasn't an attack of any consequence on me. Wow.
Chuck Shute:And then so I didn't hear about the moose one, what is that? Just you got too close to the moose, and because I that would definitely that's gonna beat you too, like you can't beat
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, yeah, moose are just real ornery, um, sometimes they don't care about you, other times they're in a bad mood or something. So I came around the corner and two of them were laying on the ground, and I just backed up a little, but one got up real slow, and then he sprinted at me and had his like antlers lowered and just swinging them back and forth. So I dove in the bushes and ran and hid behind a tree. But they have real bad eyesight, and they're not very smart, so just stay behind that tree long and. And he lost interest because it was just a mood thing, I guess. And he went back to laying down, and I went way around to make sure that I didn't have to interact or go by them because they were right on the trail.
Chuck Shute:Oh shit, yeah, that's, do you think part of it is, like, if you make noise as you're walking, don't they usually hear you and then, or usually,
Jeff Garmire:yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. If you're have noise or talking, I will just, like, talk to myself or something, or some people. If you're in a group, it works pretty good to talk. But yeah, they usually, I don't think any of them, nothing in North America hunts you. So they're not looking to, like, find a human snack. But they if they get flustered or startled, usually it's a it's just ingrained in them to attack or something, especially like a bear. If they're startled, they're self preservation, like, go after you, but if they have some warning, usually they'll be out of the way and and gone for you, and they don't want to interact with you, either it's more so a lot of the black bears will want to eat your food or something. So there's some bear storage stuff there.
Chuck Shute:Okay, yeah. And then what about you? Ever Had any actions with or seen any cougars? Because you're seeing that video. The guy, the guy, I don't think he was a hiker, I think he was just a jogger, and he was just jogging on a trail, and there was a cougar, and he keeps the Cougar keeps lunging at him, and he keeps
Jeff Garmire:Yeah, and he's screaming at it, yeah, yep, yeah. I haven't had any interactions like that. Had Cougar growl at me, or whatever shriek, whatever noise they make in the dark, that was pretty scary, but I've never had anything where it's stalking you, or anything that sweet? So did you actually see it, or you heard it? I heard it like 10 feet away or something in these this rock outcropping. And so I ran with a pretty heavy pack for the next three miles because I was going to camp any I was ready to set up my tent and go to bed, but heard this Cougar just like shrieking, kind of sounds like a crying baby or something. And then I just ran three miles before I let myself slow down in camp because I was so well. I had a bunch of adrenaline too, but was so scared.
Chuck Shute:Wow. What about snakes? Did you ever come across any snakes or rattlesnakes or anything?
Jeff Garmire:Totally lots of rattlesnakes. They're they're not a big deal because they warn you, usually, like, if you're kind of aware of what's going on and see a snake or rattlesnake, you can just stop, and usually they'll get out of the way, or you can walk around them, and if you do get too close, they'll rattle before they strike, for the most part. So haven't had any bad interactions with them overall.
Chuck Shute:And what about just bugs? I'm sure you've seen a lot of any big, crazy, scary mosquitoes
Jeff Garmire:are the worst. Yeah, you can just get some awful mosquito like, where they're there's so many, and they're biting you, and they're frustrating, and they're high pitched hum when they're flying. Can just, like, penetrate your ears. Yeah, mosquitoes can just be the most frustrating. I've seen tarantulas and stuff, and those are just fun to see. But the mosquitoes, they actually inflict harm on you, yeah,
Chuck Shute:do you wear, like the mosquito spray or anything? Does that stuff work? Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:yeah. Treating your clothing with permethrin is a really good way. It also gets rid of it repels ticks as well. So basically, you spray your clothing before the hiking season, and it'll last for a month or two. Even when you wash your clothes, it just sticks to the fibers and you don't really smell it, but it repels the mosquitoes and the ticks and I think chiggers, and few other bugs that are out there. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:the chiggers, that's like a thing in uh, Arkansas, I'm told that, yeah, really frustrating and annoying. Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:yeah. They'll just like, tear up your whole leg. They're so small too.
Chuck Shute:Oh yeah. And the ticks, yeah, we don't, I don't think they have a lot of those here in Arizona. That's, that's also more of a, it's like a Midwest thing, I think, yeah,
Jeff Garmire:there's some in all 50 states, but very few in Arizona. We have some in Montana, but not a lot. But the south all the East Coast hasn't, I think the they carry Lyme disease, which is the scary thing. And so that's a town in Connecticut, so it's named after that. So that signals that that's where a lot of ticks are at. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:more on the East Coast and Midwest, then, yeah, on the west coast. So you've done almost, have you done every major, big hike in the United States?
Jeff Garmire:I mean, probably, depending on the definition, I'd say most of them. Yeah, all the biggest
Chuck Shute:Well, yeah. So what's next for you? Then what's left? I've
Jeff Garmire:been getting more into Ultra running, doing some racing, 250 mile races, going after some records on this stuff, and then coaching. I'd like to get out to New Zealand and at least do some of the taro too. So that backpacking trail in New Zealand would be cool. But, yeah, maybe International. Or I haven't done the Great Divide Trail, which is basically through the Canadian Rockies up north. So that's another one on the list. Wow,
Chuck Shute:that'd be cool. So how do you you say like, you had to get like, I know in the book, I think you talked about because I think that was one of your first big ones that you were trying to get sponsored, and you finally got somebody. Do you have? I'm assuming you have a lot more sponsors now, with all these records and things, yeah, I just
Jeff Garmire:have like three sponsors or so, just companies that I like their gear and work with pretty well anyways. So yeah, nothing too crazy on the sponsorship, but yeah, a few sponsors, and
Chuck Shute:then you, you, you're part of this app, or is that still something you're working on?
Jeff Garmire:No, no, I've thought about doing or worked on a couple different things, but not, not really an app right now, any or anything, okay,
Chuck Shute:anything else you have to promote.
Jeff Garmire:Wow, I have my own podcast called free outside. Yeah, that is out there. Yeah, I don't know. I have a book, movie, a podcast, website, of a branded meal with ready wise, which is like a freeze dried meal, yeah? Lots of stuff always going coaching, I guess. Yeah, if anyone's looking to do Adventures of any kind kind of thing.
Chuck Shute:Okay, cool. I'll put your website in the show notes, and people want to look into any of that stuff, and they can follow you on social media. I think you're on, you're on all the social medias, right? Instagram, all that stuff. Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Fascinating stuff. Yeah,
Jeff Garmire:this was fun. Great questions. Yeah, thank
Chuck Shute:you. Keep up the good work. Thanks. Great. All right, yeah, see you later. Bye.
