Chuck Shute Podcast
In depth interviews with musicians, comedians, authors, actors, and more! Guests on the show include David Duchovny, Billy Bob Thornton, Mark Normand, Dee Snider, Ann Wilson, Tony Horton, Don Dokken, Jack Carr and many more.
Chuck Shute Podcast
Antonia Whillans (actress)
Antonia Whillans is an actress, model, voiceover artist and animal rights activist. Her latest film is an independent fictional action movie about adrenochrome harvesting titled I Am Rage. We discuss that film, along with how she got into acting and voice over work, upcoming projects, animal rights and more. A very fascinating and thought provoking discussion.
0:00:00 - Intro
0:00:40 - Developing Acting Skills Young
0:02:30 - Early Acting Roles & Skills
0:05:40 - Goals with Acting, Fame & Success
0:07:10 - Next Margot Robbie & American Accents
0:08:58 - Advantages of Independent Films
0:10:27 - Production of "I Am Rage"
0:16:25 - Plot of "I Am Rage"
0:18:30 - Having Fun & Honing Craft
0:21:33 - Other Recent Films for Antonia
0:26:05 - Writer's And Actor's Strike
0:28:32 - Voiceover Work
0:30:45 - Documentaries "When Pigs Escape" & "Slay"
0:32:30 - Veganism & Animal Rights
0:43:07 - Vegan Commercial
0:49:00 - Rescue Dogs & Love of Animals
0:56:10 - Charity to Help Animals
1:00:25 -Outro
Antonio Whillans Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/antoniawhillans?fbclid=PAAabfcENaV56eD7d9XJg4vM-ob8x45P6yo-cLruWm621-TCiPIiadCNl_1bc_aem_ATIqtePSBkQGam9FaPxQpMA2Mrz6nLY5kZw-8NINwHDVW2NSAmAqixM75XY6EW6nN0Q
Animal SOS Sri Lanka website:
https://www.animalsos-sl.com/
Chuck Shute website:
https://chuckshute.com/
Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!
Antonia Willans is my guest today she is a British actress, voiceover actress and animal rights activist. She is here to promote her new film called am rage. So we're going to talk about that, along with her background on how she got into acting and voiceover work. Plus, she tells us about some other film she has coming out. And she explains why she is vegan, some very eye opening stuff about how animals are treated in the food industry, as well as the clothing industry. Overall, very fascinating and thought provoking discussion coming right up. That's amazing. Explain to me how you learned how to read lips, though.
Antonia Whillans:Um, I can't say I learned it's just one of those things that I can randomly do. I have quite a good eye and a good ear for things as well. I'm quite musical. As a kid, I was always listening to tunes and I, I think I started picking out stuff on the piano when I was about three. And a good friend of my mom said she has a musical ear. She should play instruments and everything. So I just kind of I'm quite observant. So I'd like to think so. Yeah.
Chuck Shute:Wow. Yeah. And then you started working as an actress at five that's really young to
Antonia Whillans:Yeah, yeah, it is. I kind of fell into acting. To be honest, it wasn't necessarily something I had dreamed of doing right from the start of my life. I think I always envisioned more that I'd end up working with animals, which is something else that I kind of do on the side as well. But there was a commercial that someone that my mum knew was involved in for a TV show on Channel Five in the UK called The write stuff. And they needed a child actress, and my mom suggested me and we ended up doing it, and I loved it and had a great time. And then Alongside this, I was always mimicking people, I've always had quite a good ear for accents kind of goes hand in hand with being quite musical. And somebody said, you know, she has such a cute voice and has such a great ear for accent, she should do voiceover. So then my mom and I when I was about five or six, made a voice reel under a duvet, on a little tape recorder and sent it in the post to some London agents. And I was fortunate that one of the first ones we wrote to loved my voice and they said, Yeah, she's great. She'll work. And I kind of fell into doing TV through the same the same voice agent. So I did a few kind of hits UK shows when I was a kid. And that's kind of where it started.
Chuck Shute:Okay, yeah, so explain that because I saw some of the credits, but I don't know which ones were big hits in the UK.
Antonia Whillans:Okay, so probably the most well known would be Little Britain. Slightly provocative show. Obviously, it was a comedy series and pokes fun at lots of different parts of English life that kind of mocks that little in a little England mentality. Kind of the archetypes of different people you find across the UK. And I was a brownie who gets thrown up on by David Walliams in drag at a school fair with his sidekick, as it played by a comedian called Matt Lucas. So I did two episodes of Little Britain. It's long since been canceled, because it was, in many ways, quite offensive. Rightly so lots of things we wouldn't get away with now. And I was six years old at the time, so I didn't really have too much of an idea of of the whole show that it was allowed to watch most of it. So Little Britain was one of my early credits, which was a really fun show to be a part of, I have to say. I also did the bill, which is like a British police drama. And I was in a show called apparitions.
Chuck Shute:Oh yeah, I saw a clip of that you were really good in that. Thank you. Because it's amazing. When you're that young, it's hard to act, and it almost seems forced a lot of the time but you seem very natural. And it was like it was creepy.
Antonia Whillans:I appreciate that. Um, I don't really know where it comes from the ability as a kid I think the older you get as a as a grown up, it's kind of there's more kind of method to it. Sometimes there's more planning and thought into developing the character, but I think as a kid, you kind of just have a sense of knowing what to do or not. And I think what was key for me and all those experiences was there was never any pressure, like the people who cast me just relied on me and trusted me to perform the way that they wanted. And, you know, luckily all of those those appearances they were happy they were pleased. There's actually a really nice clip from the behind the scenes making of that. Maybe the more well known sketchy Little Britain that I was in when I'm thrown upon by the old grandma at the school fete and you can hear the director Matt Lipsy. saying, Gosh, he's fantastic legato because it had to be a one take thing. And I was like, Oh, I was a kid. I remember thinking I'm wasn't totally sure if it was the take with the vomit coming on to me. But then it did come and I think having done dance as well, I did a lot of like ballet training as a kid that teaches you discipline, and composure and poise and you know commitment. So I just kind of had the whole like Dr. Footlights, just kind of bear it and just wait till the yellow cat and then if you are uncomfortable, or whatever you can say, but while the cameras rolling, you've just got to get on with it, even if it's uncomfortable.
Chuck Shute:What are they used for? It's obviously I hope it's not real Vaughn. It's fake. But for
Antonia Whillans:us, it was porridge and vegetable soup.
Chuck Shute:Okay. Yeah. Doesn't sound so bad. So you weren't initially wanting to be an actress? Have you? Since now, do you have the dream of being a huge star? I mean, you're doing pretty well, with all these movies that are coming out.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah, um, I would say I have a dream of being a big actress in the sense that I love and relish the idea of doing challenging high profile roles on exciting productions. And working with amazing people like the team on I am rage is just, you know, one of the most wonderful crews and cars that I've worked with in recent times. The idea of fame doesn't appeal to me at all, if I'm honest, the only thing I can think of that is good about it is having a platform to talk about important things. But I like going to work going to set or going to a recording studio, doing the job connecting with other amazing creatives, but then being able to like, leave, work and come home and kind of have my private life. And I know that there's a point at which people reach a certain level of fame. And people think they have a right to know what's going on in your life and comment on the decisions that you make. And often what you see in the public eye, about a real person, it's not indicative of who they are, or you can never truly know someone just from seeing glimpses of their life online. So that side of the prospect of being a big movie star is a little scary. But, you know, sometimes you have to take those unfortunate, like things alongside the success if that's what it means to be successful.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, because that's what I when I watched the movie, I was like, Oh, you have a lot of talent. Like, you could be the next, Margot Robbie. I mean, especially if you can do you said you could do the accent you can do an American accent.
Antonia Whillans:I can depends like where you want, you got the kind of California and valley girl alive a little bit more deep south southern. The voice that I have right now I'm a little more Husky than usual, is probably better suited to the kind of deep south Texan accent. I've just got back from a festival. So I'm a little bit hoarse from a few late nights, so you'll have to forgive me rounding quite as crisp and clear as I usually do. But I do have a great love of accents. Yeah. So thank you. That's
Chuck Shute:really cool that have you? Have you been able to showcase that in any of the films you've done so far?
Antonia Whillans:Not so much in my film work, I tend to get cast as me as the character that I am. Or how I kind of appear, which is your kind of archetypal girl, next door, blond haired, blue eyed, maybe the girlfriend, maybe the kind of bitchy blonde, those are kind of some of my type casts per se, I have done a couple of roles on screen and American, I get to showcase my accents more when the audio work that I do. I record a lot of audio books, I've done commercials, I've done English language training, video game, that kind of thing. So that's when I get to experiment a bit more with accents. But the beautiful thing about working in independent film is sometimes you do get the choice with characters. And I remember the you know, the last time I think I did an American accent in a film, I did have a chat with the director and a producer about whether they wanted it or not. And they said, you know, if you're comfortable doing it, then please do. So that's one of the things I love about this kind of corner of the industry, we get that freedom. So maybe a role will come along soon. I get to choose my accent.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, so you kind of like the indie films more because you have more freedom. And
Antonia Whillans:yeah, and I just feel like independent film, there's so much of it being made, and so many people with such creative hearts that are so desperate to make work. And there's just a kind of different grit and commitment in the indie film world I feel. Because often, we come into a project with big dreams, and perhaps not the best budget or timeframe to match the dreams that you have for a production. But it means that people just work so hard to make it the best that it can be. You know, we shot iron rage in I think 16 days, which was great. That's just two weeks in terms of the actual filming days that we had, and everyone that was involved. You know, I know everyone is really, really proud of what we achieved in that time. I've done indie feature films in five or six days. And then out of that has come a 90 minute complete film. And you know, sometimes we don't have necessarily the budgets of these huge blockbusters unfortunately, but other people, they pull stuff out of the bag, the creativity of the special effects crew, the makeup crew, the creativity and the kind of forward thinking nurse, if you will, of the lighting team or the art department with props, you know, the magic that you can create with not loads of money and not much time, but just from grit and determination is very inspiring. So I love working in independent film because you meet amazingly talented filmmakers.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, that's one of the things that struck me from this film is the I liked that not big budget in terms of special effects or not CGI, they're real. And that's I don't want to spoil it. But the death scenes in this are great. Like, if people like horror and stuff and bloody I know, it's supposed to be more of an action. But the the death scenes are kind of like, horror genre I felt like and I it's cool. Like it's special effects. I don't know how they did that. But that was really cool.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah, I agree. Again, I also don't want to give too much away at this point. But there's, you know, with some of those death scenes, we had to make it look uncomfortable. And often filming those fight sequences or the torture sequences, or indeed, some of the death scenes, like the conditions we were working in were really hard. It was really cold, it was in snow, or we had been slightly injured from just doing our own stance, literally, we didn't have stunt doubles, we had maybe five days beforehand, in total, to run through different stunt sequences with our amazing stunt coordinator, Chris Torres. And he said to us, you're not going to get hurt, but you will be injured. And that's how you sell it. That's how it looks real. So you'd come away with bruises and nicks and some people would get caught. And sometimes the hits would actually land, this kind of thing. And it's those kinds of things that do happen sometimes when you're slightly pushed for time. But it does make it more realistic. And it's like I said before that passion and determination to really sell the shots alongside an amazing special effects team who just had his extraordinary array of equipment to create bullet wounds or throats being slashed, or, you know, there's one point in the film where my character is having blood taken and I'm being flayed. And I remember sitting there and is World War Two bunker, you know, somewhere outside Aberdeen and beautiful Scotland, and it was absolutely freezing. And Hannah bang Ben said might be amazing lead actress, we're kind of in there. She's opposite me. And we're both in these little skimpy outfits, shivering. And it like I say it does look realistically uncomfortable. Because it was it was really cold on there, you know, between takes our amazing co stars and the crew would quickly rush to wrap blankets around us. But you know, all the effects, sweat and, and blood dripping and pussy wounds and different types of blood as well as all those amazing things to sell the gore. There's such an audience for the gore. And there's lots of that in his films I think people are going to enjoy.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, so yeah, your stunts Warren is I would think the star had the harder stunts to do because she was really doing a lot of fighting and punching and kicking. She had more experience with that, or did she just have to train more?
Antonia Whillans:I'd say I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that Derek Nelson and I are the only two actors out of the kind of core five, which is the two main girls. And then the family members. I don't want to go into too much as well give anything away about what happens in the film. But we were the two with no, really not much prior stunt experience. Whereas Hannah martyr Luke, Jamie, they all have a lot of stunt experience. Working in mo cap as well. And in other films with doing stunt doubling and just amazing fight sequences and working in martial arts. I know Hannah does a lot of martial arts for sure. And yeah, it was certainly it looked tiring watching them. But I would say don't underestimate the challenges for being you know, there's a kind of an ongoing joke, we had that I was like the puppy, I was her puppy and she wanted to like, rescue me. But it was uncomfortable sometimes even if one of my stance as being down on the ground being kicked in the stomach. I remember Chris telling Derek, you're gonna have to kick her harder because we need to really sell it. And he was saying, I don't want to kill your girl. She's my friend. I don't want to do it too hard. And I was like, No, I was padded up and I said to him, just go for it. And I remember those words that Chris had said, You're not gonna get hurt properly, but you will be injured. And they kind of like I said before you have to make the hits land in order to sell them. So that was hard. That was uncomfortable and still does count as a as a stunt.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. Those stunts were cool and then yeah, like you said it was filmed in Scotland. So what what was that setting with all the like, little things around it was it almost look like a paintball Oh,
Antonia Whillans:wasn't salutely Right? It was a paintballing ground. Oh, yeah, you're bang on. It was this amazing forest about 40 minutes outside of Aberdeen. And it was really ironic because we'd spent the first half of the shoot in this big beautiful house in a while near Inverness, and kind of the Highlands of Scotland. And the majority of that part of the shoe, everything we were filming was indoors, but we had amazingly beautiful, sunny, hot weather, which is not typical of England at all, especially not Scotland. And then as soon as we move location, and everything we were filming was outdoors. That's when the elements really decided to mess with us. And we'd have snow, hail, wind rain, within the space of an hour. You know, there was a day when we arrived on set, and it was fixed snow. And the cast and crew were walking around trying to flatten the snow, so that we could get the shots that had to be done on that day, just because we had no other time to write anything and just a testament again to people's willingness to make it work regardless of the of the circumstances.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, cuz that reminds me of a little bit of Seattle where I'm originally from, yeah, green and beautiful. But yeah, a cold rainy, like not the best weather to shoot a movie. And so that's hardcore. What can you tell the audience about? Again, we don't want to give away too much of the plot. So what would How would you describe what the movie is about without giving too much away? I don't want to ruin it.
Antonia Whillans:I would describe the film as an action thriller. For people who love watching martial arts, particularly women fighting martial arts. It's probably a good one for the conspiracy theorists out there because it taps into the story of Audrina Chrome. And I'd say that that is maybe what sets it apart from your kind of traditional formulaic girls are kidnapped to try to escape. Because it's got this more sinister twist of the kind of quite complicated and dark reason why they've been kidnapped. So in a nutshell, Aaron and Sarah are meeting their respective boyfriend's family for the first time because their boyfriend's brothers, and they get kidnapped and tortured for their adrenaline slash Adrenochrome. And then they tried to escape. And it focuses around Aaron's problems with anger, shall we say, because she has a history that is not revealed until later in the movie. That means she reacts much more aggressively and angrily than regular people would, in moments of stress and trauma. But it also means she can fight. So there's lots of kickass fight sequences, whilst the girls are trying to escape. And that's probably all I'm gonna say. So I don't give too much more away.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, no, that's great. That's perfect. Yeah. And I agree, like the the fight sequences are fun. Like I said, I think the death sequences, were fun. I mean, some of it is there's a little bit of humor involved, right? Like some of its so over the top. It's like, it's supposed to be kind of tongue in cheek, right?
Antonia Whillans:Absolutely. It always says, and I think, especially with thrillers or horrors in his nature, when you don't have like a massive budget to play with, and you know, that there are going to be, there's always critical people that will nitpick at tiny things, like changes in the weather, or the costume or the hair and the makeup. And, you know, not without realizing that we don't have the time to kind of focus on those tiny details. You've got to get the kind of main sequences and the plot points filmed in it in a good way. Yeah, yeah, I
Chuck Shute:know. It's fun. I just love that. You know, like you said, if it's a low budget movie, it's indie. You know, you film it in 16 days, but you're not trying to make like an Oscar winner. You're like you're owning it's like an indie film and you're having fun with it. And it's like, you're just it's tongue in cheek. And what's the guy that character with the hat? Like? He's like, over the top? Like, I love it.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah, no, he was awesome. You're right, we've just got to kind of be tongue in cheek with it. And I think, you know, real indie fans will recognize that sometimes, things don't look super polished. And sometimes the script is a little bit naff, but it's kind of supposed to be you know, it is supposed to make you laugh as well as as cringe. So,
Chuck Shute:yeah, how do you use your acting skills? Because like you you have a bachelor's and a master's in drama and theater and stuff. So how do you do they teach you that stuff in school? Or is that something you learn more on the set when you're working on a film like this? Because it's not you're not doing like Shakespeare or whatever?
Antonia Whillans:That's a really good question. I'd say I loved my degrees, and they taught me so much, but I didn't do my my bachelor's and my master's within with the interest of going into acting. The best experience I've had acting wise has been from working on sets. I'd say having had the opportunity and the privilege to do productions whilst I was at university in theater and and working life one stage, that definitely helped me kind of hone my craft as an actor, if you will, especially because of the visceral nature of it being live and in front of an audience and being able to literally feel the energy of how they respond to your performance when you're literally in a theater with real people. But absolutely, the best experience that you can have as an actor, in my opinion, is to just be working on productions, at whatever scale, you know, I have the mentality, pretty much have never say no to a job. It has to be financially and or creatively stimulating for me, it has to tick one of those boxes for me. But I love working. I love the variety of it. I love the different people that you get to meet the different parts that you get to play. And it's just also so important, like you say, to have fun with it, and to not take it too seriously. You know, get into the character and do the best that you absolutely can. And be present be in the moment, but also be relaxed about the fact that it is a performance. It is an indie film, it's for entertainment. It's not, you know, a tragedy, like Shakespeare, like you say it's not Macbeth, or, you know, something like I'm trying to think of something recently that I've watched on TV, that's like a really, you know, but it is fun. You just got to bounce off each other. Make do with the conditions that you're in, like you say the budget that you have. Just enjoy it.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. Do you have a favorite genre? I know you said you like indie, but like, there's a lot of different genres even within the indie field like you could do obviously like this is action and horror. Do you do like coming of age like dramas? Kind of things like that? Would you? Or would you be more interested in doing something like that?
Antonia Whillans:Absolutely. I just, I love the like I say the range the variety of working in film, so I'm open to working in anything. To me, I love doing things that are in some regard challenging or something new that I haven't done before. I was in a short film recently that's called byebye baby that did really well on the independent festival circuit. got selected at Oscar qualifying and BAFTA qualifying film festivals, including Holly shorts and estetica. And just loads of really wonderful screenings that we went to different festivals. And that's a comedy slasher, and it was a very girly, imagine the Barbie aesthetic. But we filmed it a couple of years ago. Lots of pink, lots of bows. It's about a woman having a baby shower with her kind of filthy rich friends who will live in excess. But again, not all is as it seems with her and it descends into chaos. It's quite dark, but also very, very funny.
Chuck Shute:That sounds intriguing. Yeah,
Antonia Whillans:it's only 20 minutes. So I can send you a link. Yeah, absolutely.
Chuck Shute:Then tell me about the one the other one you have called Loretta, that you play an AI robot woman.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah. So Loretta is unfortunately slightly on pause at the moment. Again, because of budget constraints, it's so hard sometimes to find funding in the indie film world, if you don't have a name attached to this kind of thing. But the premise of Loretta is she is this AI robot girlfriend that this man buys. And again, just in case, it happens, I have my fingers crossed and pray that we do get to pick the project up. I won't go too much into the plot. But she basically finds or maybe doesn't depending on your ethical thoughts on whether AI can be conscious or not. But she kind of finds independence and finds a voice and she starts saying no to her owner slash boyfriend slash lover, whatever. And her standing up to him has some serious repercussions in that story. And that was a really, really fun one to make. I didn't enjoy if I must be honest. Getting into all the the prosthetics. It took a couple of hours at least to get into the heavy kind of robot, artificial intelligence look. more makeup than I've ever worn in my life. Great big eyelashes, wig, this kind of thing. Lots of body makeup to look like a doll. But I'd say that the dance experience that I have helped me kind of embody her physicality, the movements. And it was it was quite a challenge as well kind of thinking How would a robot communicate things like when saying sentences, not blinking as I am now because I'm a human being alive, talking to you and taking breaths and moving my body moving my face. My expressions are changing. But with Loretta, she had to blink every time she was thinking of a new sentence as if she had to think of it and she wasn't maybe programmed to do that yet because he's still maybe an early version, these kinds of things. So that was that was really fun and quite different. thing for me to do. So I really enjoy kind of the range.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that sounds intriguing. I'll look forward to hopefully that does come out because that sounds really interesting. There was another one you did call that something that demonic the demonic. What does it call the? Hey, hey, yeah, that is what okay. That right I was like I misspell that No. So yeah, what's that one?
Antonia Whillans:Demonic Fae is about a little girl who meets fairies at the bottom of her garden, and turns out that they're kind of evil, and they want to make a sacrifice in order to gain more power in the human world. But again, that is not out yet. So I'm not going to say too much. But it should be good, though loved playing a fairy and that one,
Chuck Shute:and that one probably will be is that they're having budget issues too, though, or is that one on the way? Oh,
Antonia Whillans:I'm not entirely sure where it's at in terms of the budget, the film is complete. In the stages of selling the movie prior to it being released. We're looking at maybe a November release time at the moment. Um, it's funny, you bring it up, because we had an update message about it only today. So you must be telepathic. I must make it. Yeah,
Chuck Shute:yeah. So how does that work to with the writer strike in Hollywood? Are you part of that union? Or is it different because you're in the UK,
Antonia Whillans:it's really interesting that you bring this up. And it's something I've been talking about with lots of my kind of British actor friends in this country. Because I even had to say to our Start director, I said to some of our friends, most of my friends in the iron rage team, you know, is it okay to be promoting this movie now, because the rules are any actors one day wishing to join sag, even if at present, were not should follow the rules of the strike, which means not promoting anything that is involved with the company. However, I decided upon still wanting to celebrate and rejoice and being involved in amazing independent film. And I think one of the things that hopefully will be a silver lining from the strike is that there will be more of a spotlight on independent film, and less so on the big production houses involved with the big streaming sites making films and series, you know, when there is so much as being made that doesn't always get seen or get, you know, distributed because it doesn't have that connection, or that funding from Netflix or Amazon, or HBO, or whoever it is. So, you know, in a sense, yes, we have to be careful, even if we're not sag members. But also, my personal belief is they shouldn't stop us from promoting the work that we've done, especially long before we even knew that the strike was going to happen. So yeah, they up indie film. Yeah, that's
Chuck Shute:a great point. That's a really interesting observation that yeah, I need it. Now, this will give a chance to the independent films. And I think that could be a big positive for actors, if they just say, You know what, we're going to make our own films. And they can make really great stuff. I mean, look like the guys from Goodwill Hunting, they wrote that script. But you know, just two actors decided we're gonna write a script. And I mean, they won the Oscar. So
Antonia Whillans:completely, sometimes magic does happen, and people see it. And, you know, we know we live in the world of things going viral online. But all it takes is for it to be in front of the right audience, and then your way, and you know, some absolutely extraordinary films have been made on minimal budget, minimal time. But if you've got good script, good characters, you know, a great cinematographer, you can make amazing things.
Chuck Shute:We and especially I think, with the documentaries, like you said, You've done the voiceover work, which is really phenomenal. I'm amazed at how it's how it's like your voice and you're very calm. I don't know if that's like your acting, or you're just a very calm person. But when you talk, even in this interview, I can hear you just you're very calm, and you're very, it's like relaxed, it's calming to me, I don't know if that's just how you are naturally or is that something you have to get in character to do?
Antonia Whillans:Um, I would say I'm very pleased to hear you say that because I actually find it quite nerve wracking. Being myself in interviews. I prefer the kind of thing of putting on a character on set filming something because I don't kind of have to think too much. But I'd say that's a testament to you asking great questions and just being a really personable lovely host. For you. Wow, that's amazing. I'd say that. People do say that my voice is calming. I'd say it's probably extra calming right now because it's a little bit Husky a bit lower a bit hoarse, because I slightly lost it from like singing and dancing all weekend quite late into the night at the festival that I just got home from. But um, yeah, I'd say that's also maybe a testament to my mom. She's always like, ever since I was a kid, she always said I was spoken to like an adult. Like I was respected like I was a grown up as a kid and I was always kind of been ever kind of didn't speak using big words or trying to be less articulate because I was young and might not understand and I did grow up with lots of literature like Shakespeare and have Very rich kind of cultural upbringing, going to the theater and going to the ballet going to art galleries. And I think having that, that education from her reading a lot. She's got a lovely voice. And I don't know, maybe it's just a British thing, like having to feeling the need to want to be polite, and, and articulate oneself as best as possible. I think it also does come from the voiceover work that I do. Yeah, just kind of it bodes well to be fluent. It makes your engineers and your producers happy if you can get the job done faster. Say thank you very much.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, I've never met your mom. But she's obviously done a really good job raising you and all this stuff. So tell me about that documentary because I tried to find it. But you narrated this documentary when pigs escape. It sounds interesting.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah. So when pigs escape is a true story about a pig who escaped from a slaughterhouse. And she was pregnant with piglets, and she gave birth in a woodland. And the story made massive headlines in the UK. Because people even though we are by and larger, a meat eating nation, people connected with her, she was named Matilda, and they connected with her desire to protect her babies. And a petition was made to have her allowed to go to a sanctuary and live out her life with her her children in peace, rather than having to go back to be slaughtered for meat, and it was allowed. And now she lives in peace with her a piglets in a sanctuary and I had the privilege to narrate the story.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. Is that one coming out? Or is that only in the UK or something? How do I find that
Antonia Whillans:to watch on a platform called water bear, and I highly recommend looking at other documentaries you'll find on water go, it's free as well. It's lots of films that you might not have access to, because they tackle quite difficult issues, especially ones that can be quite controversial. There's another really wonderful documentary on there that I'd recommend called slay, which is about the fashion industry specifically about leather and faux and basically how animals are utilized in the fashion industry. And there's a lot of misconception that leather, for example, is just a byproduct of the meat industry. But actually what slay reveals is that it's not. So it's really worth watching just to be as educated and informed as possible. How we as consumers, can make better choices when we're buying things and obviously eating things as well.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, see, I'm not a vegan, I know you're vegan. But you think that there's a way to eat meat and buy leather and things and treat animals better if they are going to eat meat? Because I think that to me, that's I just I'm I know I'm I'm kind of a hypocrite because I'm a huge animal advocate. But I guess I just assume that these animal animals are killed ethically. But I think a lot of times, they're probably not. And like you said, we'll probably be shocked to learn about a lot of the things that were the things that they go through.
Antonia Whillans:Absolutely, um, thank you, first of all, for asking this question. It's really wonderful to have the chance to speak about this with you. You mentioned two different industries in there. So I'm going to address the leather industry first. Because, personally, he said, Is there a way to wear leather that is kinder to animals, and is better? I'm an advocate for buying secondhand. I know lots of quite, you know, I hate to use the word extreme, because I don't believe veganism at all is extreme. And what the animals go through is the most extreme thing ever. But for the purposes of this conversation, extreme vegans, who will who would never wear an animal product ever again. And I respect that and salute them. Absolutely. I think there is so much already existing in the world. So many times that they've been made into belts or into shoes or to coats and whatever. And I personally still buy from charity shops or from websites like eBay or Depop, or vintage secondhand reselling websites to keep fashion in circulation. Because leather will decompose naturally. You know, it's not going to stick around like plastic leather in landfill for hundreds of 1000s of years or whatever. So I think buying things secondhand is kind of on my ethical compasses, okay? I would never buy it new because I don't want to increase the demand at that first point of sale for animal products. I would never wear fur in my life because generally speaking, the animals that live in fur farms just have the most hideous, it's you can't even call it an existence really. It's like a hell for animals. They are kept in these tiny cages. They often go quite psychotic because the conditions are horrendous. They might go cannibalistic and often the ways that they're killed are really really gruesome as well. They might be drowned or annually electrocuted to save getting blood on the fire and lots of fire is still being sold kind of new today. There's been quite an increase in popularity with a Canada Goose coats and Moncler. So I would just say to anyone I know do not support those industries ever. But if you must wear animal products buy secondhand from a charity shop. In terms of the meat industry, personally, I don't believe that animals exist for us to take from them. I think the whole concept of being born purely to be killed for meat or for milk or for eggs, or fish meat is wrong, because they have as much right to life as we do were the same as them in all the ways that matter. They are sentient, they feel they have complex family patterns. They have individual personalities, just like we do. In AI, say, for example, the dairy industry, I say to women, imagine a life where you're born to have your reproductive organs exploited over and over again, have your babies taken from you repeatedly, then your milk taken from you until they're no longer able to produce babies, and milk, and then you're just killed for your meat. And they'll go wow, that is basically like a life of being eternally raped. And I'm like, exactly. So because I don't believe the animals exist for us. Personally, I don't think it's right. However, there definitely is a scale in terms of how brutal the ending of the cessation of life can be. I'm not living in kind of cloud cuckoo land, I don't know if the world could ever go vegan. And I know that it's not possible for everyone to go vegan in the kind of sense of the word, having no animal products. But I do think there are, like you say, maybe better ways to look after animals before they meet the end of their lives. It's a very complex issue. I strive for a world with no animal abuse. And that would mean people giving up animal products altogether. But I think people being more conscious about the way that they buy their animal products is better than nothing. I'd like to live in a world where people did their best, rather than not doing anything at all, if that makes sense.
Chuck Shute:No, absolutely. That was all really interesting and educational for me, like I, like I said, I think I'm probably just naive. And you're probably right, I, I tried to buy like organic and farm because I feel like at least animals living on a farm and you know, they've had a life. Whereas I know that these things, some of these non organic, where the animals are just living in these like cages. And I've seen like those chicken things where the chickens are just, I mean, they're just stacked on top of each other. It just, it just seems very cruel. I don't even know how it's legal. But I guess
Antonia Whillans:you're right. It's crazy that it's legal. And it's also, it's interesting, you say that you feel bad, because what I would say is, it's not your fault that you think that because we are brainwashed to think because the animal agriculture industries use these words like humane slaughter grass fed organic, to trick the people they're selling to into thinking that the animals do have a good life. And the thing I always say is, even if they do have a slightly better life, there is still kind of their small print. So for example, at the moment in the UK, you can buy free range eggs, but because of the bird flu concerns, there are actually no free roaming chickens at the moment. So in very small print on the egg boxes, it says, Actually, these birds are caged, but they're not telling people that. So there are things that legally you can get away with. And there are organizations that supposedly exist to protect animals welfare, but actually it means nothing. I would urge anyone who is interested just to have the information and then make an informed choice to read a book by the wonderful vegan activist who's called earthling Ed, otherwise, is what his real name is Ed winters. But he goes by the name earthling Ed. And he's written a book called this is vegan propaganda, and other lies the meat industry tells you, and it just has a very factual account of what these words mean, what the kind of legal situation is, what the conditions are, I would describe it, it's not an emotional book, it's not necessarily something to to make people feel bad, it's just to give them the information to then have the full idea, the full picture. And I would also urge anyone who is interested, and even if you're not interested, just just to be armed with the information. So you know, and out of respect for the animals that you eat, to watch dominion, to watch Cowspiracy to watch, land of hope and glory, sees Pharisee there are some really wonderful documentaries that do give an insight into how these industries work. And then if people can watch those, they can then decide if they want to pay for that or not. But at least you'd be fully informed. That's what I'd say.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I think I saw the Cowspiracy Cowspiracy one. I think that's the one I've seen some of those things. Yeah, you just get little glimpses. And you're like, I don't think people understand. I know it's probably different in the UK, because I think in the UK, they treat the food a lot differently. People that are gluten intolerant in America, go to the UK and eat the bread and they're totally fine. So I think It's even worse here in America the way that not just animals, but I feel like even the way our plants are treated with insecticides and things like that,
Antonia Whillans:it really is like a war on health. I think we live in a world where we're not designed to take ownership of our own health, you know, I think it kind of bodes well for the food industry is the pharmaceutical industry is if people are ill, and hooked up and dependent on a system. And it is in the food that we eat, unfortunately, like, say, the pesticides, you know, there's heavy metals and fish in the ocean, there's plastic in the ocean, there's chemicals in the water, it's really, really hard to go right. And I think it's, it is very difficult as well, because we live in a world with an ever increasing population. And there's such a demand that they need to get food out to the masses quickly. And stuff has grown, not organically, not the best way that it should be. So it's really hard to avoid. And even if you are buying organic, it's more expensive. It's not easy. So I'm just like I say even the same with your ethical decisions. Again, with eating well, you just have to do the best you can with what you have available to you, depending on your financial situation. Or if you're fortunate to have an outdoor space and you can grow some of your own food. Or you can have like a water filter system, you know, and just try and get outdoors and get sunlight as much as possible and be active. I I always say to people do the best you can you do the best you can with what you have. Don't worry too much about what you can't, can't Yeah,
Chuck Shute:that's kind of nice. Do you what what kinds of foods you eat as a vegan? You don't eat the fake meat stuff, do you?
Antonia Whillans:I do occasionally, because I do like it. It's quite interesting again, that you raised that as well because lots of people say to vegans, why do vegans want their food to look and taste like meat? Like surely, that's the opposite of what they want. But for lots of vegans, especially ethical vegans, people who've gone that way because of animal rights. It's not that I don't think animals taste nice. It's not that I didn't like chicken, or eggs or whatever. I mean, the thought of it now does make me feel a little bit strange. But it's being against what happens to the animals. So naturally, if there is an alternative that is made of soya or wheat or pea protein, there's amazing alternatives. Now, you know, the festival I went to at the weekend was actually a vegan Festival. It's called Vegan campout. And it's run by a very good friend of mine. And one of the best things about that festival is there's just yards and yards and yards of all the top vegan food companies that come to serve their food to vegans on mass 13,000 I think that attended the weekend. And a lot of it is super delicious. So sometimes I will treat myself to a vegan chicken burger or maybe the vegan bacon and it is pretty nice. But I try and stick with the whole foods diet just because it makes me feel healthier and happier and more energetic. There's so much fruit and veg that is amazing. That has so much variety, you know, you can do about 100 things with an oyster mushroom. You can turn an oyster mushroom into the equivalent of like a piece of fried chicken with the right seasoning and frying it and it is delicious.
Chuck Shute:Oyster Mushroom. I'll have to try that.
Antonia Whillans:Yeah, do please. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that's it's funny. You did that commercial. And it was like, it got like it got a Daily Mail article. And it was like, Can they call it vegan propaganda, which you like proud of that you're like, interesting commercial, because like what happens to not that I need to spill out a 32nd commercial. But yeah, these people order pulled pork and the guy delivers a pig and a meat cleaver. And it's a really cute little pig. And it's like, it doesn't make you think like, you know, if you had to kill this yourself, Could you do it?
Antonia Whillans:Exactly, you've hit the nail on the head. And I think, first of all, it was such a privilege to do the advert because I've long been a supporter of Viva the charity, who commissioned the birth. So it was such a joy to kind of merge my animal loving tendencies and desire to be involved in vegan activism. Because I've done the animal rights marching and I've done, you know, leafleting, flyering, talking to people outreach on the street, that kind of thing. But to have the opportunity to kind of bring together my, my skills, my career, my job as an actor. And the vegan message was such a privilege. And I remember in my audition, and I met Juliet gladly who is the founder of viva, I said to her, honestly, just meeting you, as a privilege, because she is like, somebody really pivotal in the vegan movement in the animal rights movement. And I said, even if you don't cast me, I'm so happy to just to be included. I'm just happy to be here. Thank you. I mean, really connected. And then the director kind of said, Okay, we need to we need to audition, you know. So, it was a really it was a very controversial advert. It was amazing because it reached a minimum of 16 million people. It was broadcast for a month on the British TV channel, channel four, and it's associated networks, and I'm very pleased to say as well that they're refunding to have it broadcast on TV again right now. So we've got an amazing leader. generous donated, donated donor who was going to donate one pound for every pound donated, get it on the TV again, which is amazing. But it really did ruffle a few feathers. And I think specifically it's it's really interesting that it, it did stir up so much conversation because they specifically wanted it to be not violent at all. There's no footage of slaughterhouses or description or depiction of anything that happens to animals, there's no violence, there's no bloodshed. It's just what your imagination comes from the image of the live animal and the meat cleaver. And we also really wanted to highlight what vegans refer to as speciesism. So you have sexism and racism, right? She's Islam is the belief that some animals are more important than others. You know, the whole thing of why love one buddy, the other people love their traditional domesticated animals like dogs and dogs and cats. Yeah. Okay, with eating cows, pigs, chickens, fish are really smart, right? They be smart, they are smarter than dogs actually, supposedly, according to science. Not that your intelligence should be a dictator, necessarily, of whether you deserve to live. But it's a really interesting point that you make because they are super intelligent. And you know, when you spend time with cows and see them, you know, I went to an event with another documentary called Food for Thought, which is about veganism yet to be released. And we did some filming for that documentary in this wonderful sanctuary called the good heart animal sanctuary. And they had rescue dairy cows there and cows that have been saved from the beef industry. And they are like big puppies. They just run around. They love being scratched and tickled. And they kind of purr. And they kind of nuzzle you. They're super sweet. Dogs. Yeah, they really know that. Wow. Yeah. So it was very important within the advert that the couple have a pet dog as well, because they're cuddling on the sofa, and they're stroking their pet dog, they go to the front door and open the door, and the pig is there on the lead. And the delivery guy says free gear for new customers and hands in the meat cleaver. And you see the pig lift. Its little Trotter about to come into the house and the dog, just right on cue looks down and it's like, oh my God, and you see them kind of thing like, wow, what is actually different emotionally,
Chuck Shute:then you doesn't help doesn't hurt that you pick the cutest pig. I think that
Antonia Whillans:I tell you something funny though, we actually had two pigs. They were from like a company that has animals for stage and screen. And we only were able to have them for two hours. Because they're very energetic. They don't have you know, attention spans. They're not like trained circus animals kind of thing who they live. And they come and they they do. You know, performance isn't this kind of thing. But people can pop them I think like a petting zoo kind of thing. I'm pretty sure that the charity and the organization making the form, they really wanted to make sure that they they chose this stage behaves ethically, of course, because you do have these things in the UK where you can go and pet animals as babies and then afterwards research and think what actually happens to those micro pigs when they when they grow old. You know, it does make you think, right. But um, we had two pigs because they have to make sure that they got the shot, and we nearly didn't get it. And it was just that time, that second pig looking and about to come into the house and we hadn't quite got it. And then we've kind of given up on getting it because we were running out of time with pigs. And then I sat down just stroking them while they were moving the setup to a different part of the house and we're shooting and the pigs calm down. And then the wonderful Juliet was down she was feeding them carrots, they were loving so much that they actually bid her finger and it bled because they were enjoying the carrot so much there was the the ASIC guys, the pigs are calm, I think we can get the shop again. So they quickly set it up. And just got that moment and I'd like to take some credit for the pigs being calmed in that moment ready because I was stroking them. So
Chuck Shute:your voice that was probably what it was. Yeah, thank you very calm voice. And so you have a couple of rescue dogs of yourself, right?
Antonia Whillans:Do I have a rescue dog from Romania? He was called law. And I have a rescue dog from Egypt called Pablo. And they are the lights of my life. I was referred to them as my fairy sons.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, so does that is that you've mostly grown up with dogs or have you grown up with other animals? Or how'd you get so interested in animals?
Antonia Whillans:You know, it's one of those things it's really hard to pinpoint. I think part of it is thanks to my upbringing. I had a wonderful childhood thanks to my mom and my grandma. And we've always just taken in stray animals. Dogs, cats, always rescuing animals that we might find. We've rescued a bat Seagull pigeons, foxes that kind of thing. Boxes. Yeah, we've been involved in charity in the UK. So cute. Oh, wonderful. And again, they're really misunderstood. They're kind of seen as vermin in the UK. Oh really? hates me because, you know, there's lots of urban foxes in London and they kind of see You can do people's bins, or sometimes people might leave their back doors open. And if there's food, a fox might be confident and come in and try and pinch and they kind of vilified for that reason. But actually, they were around long before we were before London was a city, it was a wild wood. So actually, people have built their roads and their houses and they're, you know, corporate lands on what was once wilderness. So of course, the animals are going to struggle with coming to terms with that and still enter what is now our space sometimes, you know, but I always feel it's such a privilege to see an animal like a fox in the wild. And I'm quite lucky where I live. Sometimes I spot deer, as well, little muntjac deer, sometimes hawks, red tailed hawks, parakeets, the occasional woodpecker, I think it's such an honor to see a wild animal. So I've always had had a love of, of all animal kind. And I'd say, that was instilled in me from a young age, just having respect for all life for my mom and my grandma went vegetarian when I was maybe 18. Or there my mom's that I flirted with it from when I was maybe 16. But didn't quite make the connection or have the kind of know how to remove the meat from the food I was making. And then I did it properly when I went to university. And then I did some more research on the dairy and the egg industry, maybe a few years after that, I realized that eating milk and eggs didn't align with my values just as much as eating meat didn't remove those. And I think just in general, having a love of nature, always being drawn to being outside the ocean, the word, you know, just being wild and free being barefoot on the earth, whatever it may be, if it's in a forest, or in a field, or on a beach, and just having a real connection and feeling at home, when in wildlife and nature. And then the older I got understanding how human beings impact nature, and how we, you know, damage it and the things that we do. And then also just having this innate feeling that I that my purpose is to try and do something to make it better. And I feel like, in any situation, if you're in a position to do something to help someone, anyone, then he must do it. That's how I tried to live my life. You know, I'll try and move snails out of the way on the pavement if they think they're gonna get stepped on.
Chuck Shute:That's super cool. Yeah, that's funny. I once I was driving, and we're going to Vegas, and there was this tortoise crossing the road and I, I went around him, but I thought I was like, I should have like, stopped the car and picked him up and carried him and cross it. Because what if the next guy doesn't stop? You know, it's like, scary.
Antonia Whillans:It's interesting, you say that as well. Because, you know, when you watch these nature, documentaries, and there might be an injured baby animal or the litter. And the mommy has to kind of decide whether to prioritize healthy babies and move on to the next place out of danger. But, you know, I remember seeing I think it was it was definitely David Attenborough and I can't remember what the animal it was, I think it was a kind of monkey. And you saw this, this mummy monkey really struggling because it had one of her baby monkeys was injured, and couldn't keep up. But they had to move. And people often say like, in that scenario, why don't the people filming do something. But they're always taught not to intervene, you have to let nature be nature. So in that scenario, maybe the best thing is to let the tortoise be the tortoise, you know, they're in immediate danger, then obviously, and you're in a position to help and it's the right thing to do to help. You know, you're not putting yourself in danger.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, but it's just like you said, with, with man, because we built this freeway, and like we're like, we're like, this is not natural. It's not like the tortoise is designed to avoid cars, you know, so I just felt like, I gotta help
Antonia Whillans:wonderful kind of things around the world, you know, in this country and in exotic parts of the world where they'll put bridges across roads. Yeah. Places for elephants to cross or even places for like mice and small rodents to cross and I think that's such a wonderful incentive. You know, to try
Chuck Shute:and do that a little bit. There's like on the way to Vegas there's a thing for the Rams what do they call those the goats or the Rams or land? Yeah, there's a bridge. Have you seen that movie? Wildcat on Amazon Prime? Yes. Oh, like trying to get that guy on my podcast. But yeah, that one really? Like I teared up multiple times on that one that was like, but it's like you said that whole thing about not intervening how he had to like, try to kick the cat out of like and tried okay, like you're on your own now buddy like,
Antonia Whillans:and it's so hard because as human beings naturally this is why I think especially when it comes to connecting with animals and veganism, I think most people probably naturally are in our hearts. Vegans because most people have innate compassion towards each other and towards animals. Most people would shy away or feel uncomfortable watching Animal death. You know, I don't know Anyone who will drive past a field of cows without going, cows, you know, it's that natural delight you have when you see an animal. So it must have been so unbelievably hard for him the wonderful guy in the Wildcat film, to try and separate himself having built this extraordinary relationship with this wonderful wild cat. And it's just so I take my hat off to people that do that. And I would love to do something like that. One day. That's, that's really my dream. I love acting, and I love working. I love the performance side. But I'd like to reach a point where I have enough money and or enough of a platform to raise awareness for animals in need, and just educate and inform people. And also give people a chance to help because lots of people want to do things. For people who are struggling or animals who are who are struggling, struggling. They don't know why I don't know how to start, don't know how to get involved. And it just would be amazing for there to be more ways that people could help. So that's
Chuck Shute:why I always end every episode promoting a charity. Is there a nonprofit that people can donate to for this cause for to help animals?
Antonia Whillans:Absolutely. The charity that I was thinking of, which I will say is animal SOS Sri Lanka. And these are wonderful, wonderful people who rescue and rehabilitate injured street animals. And I would say look them up on Instagram. I'm pretty sure the Instagram name is animal underscore SOS underscore SriLanka. But if you just search it, you'll find it. I think especially anyone who does have pet dogs or cats will be shocked. Lots of the stray dogs that they find had been attacked by people. Sometimes, people will lease dog food with fireworks, dogs eat. And it causes really severe life threatening injuries. There'll be in car collisions. Because sometimes in different parts of the world culturally, they don't see dogs and cats as pets. You know, something on that note, that does frustrate me as people love to say, criticize other cultures that eat more what we perceive as exotic animals or parts of the world where they dogs and cats and they say, oh my god, you know, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Sri Lankans, whoever, they they treat their animals so much worse. And I say no, they don't. They just treat all animals worse. You know, we're selective about the animals we treat badly, but we know better, you know, but animal SOS do amazing, amazing work. And I would also urge anyone who's listening and is interested in animal welfare to look up vegan organizations like viva, just to read some more about what they're doing. Obviously, I'm going to promote Viva because I was fortunate enough to work with them on the advert. But recently, they've had some wonderful success with closing down a really hideous pig farm, which the founder went in and she she found some really harrowing scenes which she filmed and reported, and that hit the news as well. And we had a victory which is that they're now shut down. But that's obviously just one pig farmer. However many. So yeah, support animal, SOS SriLanka and check out the work that beaver are doing.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I noticed like, the older I get, the less I can, I can't watch kids or animals being hurt. It just makes me I can watch like an iron rage, I can see the people getting the blood squirting. And you know, I know it's a movie, but that's fine. But it's like, even if it's a movie, and it's a kid or an animal getting hurt. I just it makes me queasy, like I can't do it. So
Antonia Whillans:that's because you know, that's how it should be though. I think naturally, when you see somebody who is completely innocent, and has no choice in situations for themselves, of course, it's going to make you feel like that. And I think that's, you know, a sign of having a good heart and compassion for others. So don't lose that. Because I think it's something lots of people are born with, you know, naturally, kids are loving, they're interested in each other. And in people, kids don't have like a mask or a filter, they'll just go up to people and talk to them and say what they think they'll just stroke animals, you know, they're not scared, they just connect with them because they see the soul right. And as older and we learn how dark the world can be you get locked down and rejected and disappointed. And it clouds our judgment and our vision and how wonderful the world can be. And we lose that innocence, that playfulness and that ability to connect with each other. So I think if you have it, you're lucky to be a grown up and have that hold on to me. It's precious.
Chuck Shute:Wow. Well said well, the new movie is out. Now I am rages on Amazon Prime and people can pay five bucks to rent it on the other platforms right?
Antonia Whillans:out today. So please watch it.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. And then all these other projects that you have coming out, so people should follow you on Instagram. Is that the best way to keep up? Yeah,
Antonia Whillans:I mean on Instagram. My Instagram is Antonia Willans. I had another release on Amazon Prime just a few days ago as well which is British comedy series called patterns focuses on LGBTQ relationships. But it's funny, it's a good comedy again, independent project. So give that a watch as well. Okay, sounds good. I parent episode eight. Okay, great. And
Chuck Shute:then yeah, hopefully you'll come back if you don't get too big and become an expert. Thank you so much for having us. All right. Thank you have a good one. My thanks again to Antonia Willans. Her latest film is called I Am rage. It's available on Amazon Prime. But I think it may only be in the UK, so you may have to pay to rent it here. It's only $4. So check it out. Make sure to follow Antonia on Instagram to keep up with all her latest projects. And while you're on there, you can follow myself and the show. And make sure you subscribe wherever you watch or listen. If you want to go the extra mile. I'd love for you to give us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen. And if you're on YouTube, you can hit the thumbs up button and again that subscribe button also helps a lot. I appreciate all your support for my guests and the show. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.
