Chuck Shute Podcast
In depth interviews with musicians, comedians, authors, actors, and more! Guests on the show include David Duchovny, Billy Bob Thornton, Mark Normand, Dee Snider, Ann Wilson, Tony Horton, Don Dokken, Jack Carr and many more.
Chuck Shute Podcast
Frank Robb (Alligator Expert)
Frank Robb is an alligator expert and founder of the non-profit EEARSS (Environmental Education Awareness Research Support and Services). He became a Chicago legend when he caught the alligator Chance the Snapper in Humboldt Park in 2019. We discuss that incident along with many interesting facts about alligators and how they may have some answers to curing disease in humans.
00:00 - Intro
00:37 - Frank's Background
03:20 - Alligators Vs. Crocodiles
05:25 - Location, Size, & Lifespan
07:45 - Alligators, Gender & Pollutants
09:43 - Alligators & Intelligence
12:27 - Alligators With Dogs & Humans
15:10 - Alligators Diet
17:27 - Sounds Alligators Make & Teeth
19:55 - Alligators & Their Young
21:18 - Gator Holes & Predators
24:00 - Humans Feeding Alligators & Social Media
28:35 - Alligators & Manatees Hanging Together
29:32 - Chicago Gator Chance "The Snapper"
37:15 - Alligators Endocrine Systems
39:25 - Alligators & Echosystem
40:40 - Pythons
42:25 - Alligators, Disease & Conservation Issues
48:17 - Giant Snakes & Risk
51:45 - EEARSS
52:46 - Outro
EEARSS website:
https://eearss.org/
Chuck Shute website:
https://chuckshute.com/
Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!
Alright guys, today my guest is alligator expert and wildlife conservationist Frank, alligator, Rob. And Frank became a Chicago legend when he caught chance the snapper in Humboldt Park lagoon in 2019. He's going to tell that story and lots of other great facts and interesting things about alligators and how they can help us learn about and even cure disease. And this is a really fascinating episode coming right up yeah, thanks for taking the time. I was just like random that I, I came across that you had done another podcast, a spear talk one. And so I listened to this is a really good episode. I think I want to reach out and see if he'll be mine. So thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. I know a lot.
Frank Robb:Here's a good man. That was a fun chat.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I've learned a lot about alligators. Just studying for this episode and listening to you talk as well. And I think we got a lot to talk about here. So But first off, yeah. Can you explain to my audience, just your background a little I heard you talk about, obviously, in the other podcasts about how your dad was a land surveyor. So you would that's kind of how you got accustomed to nature and wildlife and all that, right.
Frank Robb:Yeah, as a kid, man early on, seven, eight years old, you remember, going out and cutting property lines of my dad gonna be a professional land surveyor, he'd turn an angle would be like, we're going that way, however many 100 feet and you know, so we take a machete and get machetes and start cutting property lines. And in doing that, we'd come across. You name the things, snakes, bats, all kinds of different lizards, whatever it might be. insects, spiders, of course, and he would break them down for me and tell me, tell me what each of the things were. And then, as I got older and got more interested in wildlife, guesses, I was a freshman in high school, I started helping my uncle who was they then? Alligator Trapper for the state of Florida for the Space Coast over here where I'm at and who would have ever imagined it would have become a career?
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, do you got a bio? What? Is it a biomedical degree or something?
Frank Robb:Yes, sir. You have a biomedical background? Yes. So after years of doing that work with him? Yeah, he's he was the rare one of the group of like, 30 different people that were in the state doing that work at the time that actually had a conservation ethic. And I wanted to, I wanted to see and learn more about the human benefits of crocodilians to us and our health. So I went back to school, got the biomedical medical degree and started really digging into the more research and scientific side, which is kind of where I was at from the beginning. Anyhow, you know, I've been part of and help with studies involving everything from endocrinology and toxicology to parasitology, you name it, satellite tracking, whatever it might be. I've done a little bit of a little bit of stuff with it. We just did some did a lipid study. I mean, you name it. So I mean, we're working with a group of paleontologists in Georgia now. It's pretty amazing. allowed me the ability to start my own nonprofit and start doing this stuff. I mean, next week, I'm in. I'm in Belize catching crocodiles next week. We're we're doing more research down there. So it's been been a journey, buddy.
Chuck Shute:Absolutely. Well, yeah, well, and we'll get into the health benefit things at the end. I have some questions about that. But first off, I think the most common question, I would assume that you get asked or at least for me, is the differences in alligators and crocodiles, so and I think I figured out it's kind of some subtle things, the shape of the snout, the colors, freshwater saltwater, right? Those are kind of the main things.
Frank Robb:Well, in order to break it down completely, you have to understand that they're all crocodilians, and there's 26 different species of crocodilians around the world. They're in every subtropical climate. On the planet, they're they're they're, they're a semi aquatic animal. I mean, there's different species that don't even live in water. But it's alligators, crocodiles, Cayman, and Gharial. That kind of breaks it all down. There's two different species of crocodile, American crocodile and tiny are American alligator and Chinese alligator. And then you have your crocodile, your crocodile species, your Cayman species and stuff like that. But they're all different colors. They're all different shapes. Crocodiles traditionally have a they have a nasal disc, or alligators actually have nares or two separate nostrils has a head shape color. The scutes of the armor on their back is all different. The osteoderms There's etc. Two of them beside each other. There's no real similarities living they're both being large reptiles.
Chuck Shute:Okay, yeah. And the crocs are more aggressive, right? Typically.
Frank Robb:It depends on the species you're dealing with. I mean, if you're talking about American crocodiles, they're actually even more shy than the American alligator. Oh, really. There's there's only three of those out of the all those 26 species that are actually listed as managers. But he had nothing we have anywhere around here would it's just in order to have that kind of interaction with a with a crocodile. You have to be making some very bad life decisions for The most pain.
Chuck Shute:Oh yeah. And we'll get into that too. But yes, because there's only so everything else is a crocodile the only two like you said, it's American and the Chinese alligator, or the American ones live in the US and Mexico, too, right?
Frank Robb:Yes, southeastern United States. So actually all the way in Oklahoma now, we do research in North Carolina, and there's the northern North Carolina. And yes, there are some alligators in Mexico, too. Yep.
Chuck Shute:And there's the biggest population actually in Louisiana, because everyone thinks Florida but Louisiana might actually have more.
Frank Robb:Do we have a solid million here in Florida? They have 4 million in Louisiana. Oh, it's that much of a difference? Dang. It's that big of a difference.
Chuck Shute:Wow. And so the they're typically about 13 feet, but the biggest one ever was 19 feet? Is that Is that about right?
Frank Robb:It's pretty special. Have you seen an alligator that's, you know, 10 or 11 feet, it's something very special. That's your typical full grown bull 1011 feet, you'll see. They're just like people, they're all individuals. So occasionally, you'll see one that might grow to a big 11 or 12. Or like the rarity, the rare exception is a 13. But it's, it's very uncommon. Those are what we would call the local generals, you might run out, you might run a multiple, multiple huge areas to be that size.
Chuck Shute:So that 19 footer is like, record might never be broken.
Frank Robb:Needle never be broken now. Okay. It's there's, it's it's rare these days, at least like I say, if you see a you see a big 11 or 12. It's a rare thing.
Chuck Shute:But how long do they typically live? Because I thought I read something like we don't know, their average lifespan, like some of the ones in captivity have lived into their 80s. But we don't actually know how long they actually live for.
Frank Robb:They'll that's an interesting question. You know, they'll live as long as a person. You know, I live, live and work down here at the Kennedy Space Center. And a lot of those gators out there are you know, they're they're ancient, because on a wildlife preserve, too. So you see what's out there. 60 7080 years old, but we know in captivity to live to over 90. It's in the wild, there's the longest term study going on is actually up in the in the Carolinas to fill a name Phil willing to have his filth that was filled last name, he works for Clemson. Anyhow, they were they've been doing a study up there for 38 years. And a couple of years ago, they had caught one of the Gators that they had caught 37 years previous. And this was a seven foot seven female on nest. And they had pictures and documentation of the same animal from 37 years previous, where she was still seven foot seven and on a nest. And they said everything measured the same. Just like people when you get when you get to a certain size when you top out in a certain size. That's just where you go. And there are a lot of times genetically the same way.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, it's interesting to you. I didn't know this that the alligators the sex of the of the Gator is not determined by DNA, but it's by climate. So if it's warm, it's going to be a boy. And if it's cool, it's it'll be a girl so you could in captivity, you could manipulate that. Right?
Frank Robb:Yeah, that's one of the interesting things about crocodilians that one degree positive or negative can turn them male or female. That is the case unless there's environmental toxins involved. And like I was saying, that's what's interesting with the endocrine system, you know, the reproductive hormones, or the endocrine hormone hormones are the same on crocodilians, as they aren't us, or 99.9%, the same. So when these endocrine disrupting chemicals, like forever chemicals, P Foss, everybody's heard about those at this point, when those are involved in the environment, they determine the sex of the animals. So something to think about because those are the same chemicals affecting us.
Chuck Shute:Explain that because I think there's a lot of conspiracy theory or what it's been labeled as conspiracy theory that that like I know, with frogs and stuff, the sex can change based on some of these toxins and they can, right I mean, is that so? This
Frank Robb:person? Yeah, their endocrine disrupting disruptors, that's what forever a lot of the Forever chemicals are, then plenty of papers published on it. Plenty of scientific articles published on it, they look up endocrine disruptor and that pretty much gets you as far as you want to. But again, so with crocodilians very close to identical reproductive hormones for us, and these chemicals get in there and they they change a lot of things. It's it's a detailed discussion on its own but so can name they can get in there and change it.
Chuck Shute:Can they make the animal gay? Is that really a thing? Or is that just like a conspiracy theory?
Frank Robb:I've never heard that one buddy.
Chuck Shute:But they can change the sex they can
Frank Robb:change male or female it's a bit so that's going to change male or female. Okay, because again, it's it's one degree positive or negative was a million.
Chuck Shute:That's so interesting. So I didn't realize how smart these alligators are like I saw this video online of the the animal of alligator he was pushing his way through a wrought iron fence and he just got you know, those wrought iron fences. They think that they're gonna keep the alligators out and they just push their way right through it. I mean, there must be strong to to do that.
Frank Robb:There was a lot of there's a lot of stuff going on in that video you speak of. They were, he was being harassed pretty bad. He wanted to leave where he was at very badly. So he was he was getting the heck out of dodge. But yet when they want to go through a fence or under a fence, they pretty much they can make it work.
Chuck Shute:It's insane though I heard you talking about like, if you went if you had to go to like a golf course to catch one, you have to dress like a golfer like if you come in like your rubber boots, they can they can spot you, you have to like go under, basically.
Frank Robb:Yeah, they never forget any interaction they have. Right? So gotta keep in mind. I always joke that they're not doing their own taxes or their own kids calculus homework. They're survivors. That's what they do. They're working on surviving and nothing else. So any experience they have, they're consistently putting that in their brain. They're going okay, this this was okay, this was okay. Man I saw gotta data wasn't weren't addressed. You're on this golf course. And he rocked my world man, he had a fishing rod and who knows what was going on. But they, it's weird things that stick out. They're noticing things that okay, that guy's not the dress the same, the this guy has a different pattern. He looks different. There are a lot of old school guys, I learned from a color carry different color hats with them carry different colored T shirts. If they if you have an interaction with one one time in a certain vehicle and you don't catch him, he'll, they'll remember what your vehicle sound like. Remember what you sound like talking. They remember what you smell like they just they never forget these kinds of things. They're geniuses in their own right. They really are. If people knew how smart they really were, they would scare the daylights out of people.
Chuck Shute:Like give me another example of like something really smart that they do.
Frank Robb:They so let's say you're you live on a pond, and you come home every day at five o'clock. And the first thing you do is you take your dog out, and you get on the edge of the pond with the dog off the leash, and he runs down the water. And he runs back and forth and he barks. You might not ever even see an alligator. there's gonna come a day when you do that one time and that Gator been over there and other side of the pond taking notes for months. He's gonna be right there waiting at five o'clock, and he's gonna pick the dog up, you're never gonna see a splash. It's just it people take things for granted, right? It's it's not the alligators a bad animal. It's not that a crocodile is a bad animal. They're looking for opportunities. And all they have all day is time to sit back and take notes and digest things and think about the opportune way to make an ambush and make it work out. They're just there's nothing better. They are an apex predator for a reason.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. And so they do attack dogs. Is that pretty common?
Frank Robb:Yeah, I mean, it wouldn't call it an attack. It's just it's they they're doing what they do. They're catching a prey item. You know, I mean, it just they're, they're handling business. Do they love Fortunately, there's people that you know, I'm a dog person. I love my dogs, I would never put my dogs in that situation. There's some people that take for granted the fact that it's never going to happen until it actually happens.
Chuck Shute:So because I don't live in Florida, I only been there once, but you probably shouldn't walk your dog near bodies of water. I mean, is that kind of the
Frank Robb:Yeah, no joke. If you you tempt the devil, bad things will happen. Right? I mean, you doesn't matter if your dog is on a leash or off the leash or what's going on? If you're walking your animal near water. You're not putting his his best interest his interest in mind by any means.
Chuck Shute:Is that what happened at the the Disney World thing where the kid got eaten? Because that was really strange. Like, I think that was a terrible situation. Yeah, like why did people just not think that there would be gators inside the park like that?
Frank Robb:All those were people that weren't from, you know, weren't from this area, I don't think they'd ever had an interaction with an alligator. And, or even maybe even see an alligator who knows. And they just as a terrible, that's a terrible thing, man, sometimes bad things happen. And that was that was one of those where I was at, like, a gate or an area that would in an area that was known for feeding. And they wouldn't have known that. They wasn't
Chuck Shute:there signs or something. I think there there was warnings. I believe there
Frank Robb:were signs. Yeah. Yeah, cuz if you've never if you've never seen or watched or interacted with an alligator, even the sign there, you're probably not going to really get a grasp of how things how bad things can go very fast if you've never really watched one interact in person before.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, no, it's really it was really fascinating. And then I heard that they they killed all the alligators. And they said they probably didn't even get the one that that ate the kid. So it's like why did they kill the alligators? Because like you said, they're just acting on instinct. I don't really understand the strategy behind that. It seems like maybe they need a bigger fence or something.
Frank Robb:When there's a loss of life. The answer is to take that animal it's it's a tough that's a tough discussion. Yeah, that were more important than they are it's sad to say that you know, I mean but we come first. Sometimes even with that animal made a mistake for future liability reasons and for the the future health of anybody else there. The thing to do is we'll move on from that from that one animal but it's it's a tough topic, man. It's, there's no it's it's a bad situation. Even for the animal, it's a bad situation with a person obviously, when when something like that goes down, you know, they everybody loses, including the including the animal does,
Chuck Shute:right? But that's more rare because typically they're eating just fish and snakes and turtles and other smaller mammals, right?
Frank Robb:It depends on the size of the alligator. I mean, they start off, you know, as little guys, I mean, not a whole lot bigger than that. And they're eating water bugs and whatever they can get their get their little miles on, they work their way to, to minnows and and frogs and then work their way up from there to when there's they're getting to a bigger animal, their fate with some of their favorite foods are turtles and fish, and eventually other alligators and snakes. And you name it.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, it's waited, I thought I read that they sometimes eat fruit and vegetables and stuff like that, which was I mean, it's like not a bulk of their diet. But there's a little bit of that
Frank Robb:yet. So there's been a big discussion about that in the crocodilian community for a while the fact that supposedly they they're not able to digest fruits, and things of that nature, but they're consistently doing that. And we find them over here, eating salt, prominent berries quite often. That's one of those things. It's actually used for different endocrine cancers and people like prostate cancer. Yeah. So we always wondered if that was them having the same endocrine hormones if they were self medicating, or if they were just using those as gas or lips, because they do eat rocks, and stones and things and use them as gastro toilets or things that go inside their stomach that grind everything else up. Because they're eating, they eat some pretty rough rough things.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I saw this one. It was like a video, obviously was in captivity. So it was a dead chicken. But they gave him the chicken. And he kind of like, threw it up and then like re swallowed it. It was kind of interesting to see is that kind of break up some of the bones or something?
Frank Robb:I've never seen one do that. But they will. Sometimes it depends on the animals a lot. A lot of them are like something that's fresh, and you got some little leaves up and laying let everybody else do on it too. It's one of the things that makes them a keystone species. Whenever they eat, everything else eats with them. The other the minnows, they're there the turtles, the other gators, everything else eats whenever they eat. Why is that? That's just they share you know, I mean, they're just they're not exactly clean eaters. They go everywhere. Okay, those hands out there and use their forks and knives and elegant as
Chuck Shute:well explain to me the sounds because I heard some really interesting sounds of the alligator makes and I heard you talking about how there's different sounds like happy and distress and sad and, and I mean, some of them are like it sounded like something from Jurassic Park. And some of it sounds almost like pigs oinking and it's really one of them sounded like a vacuum cleaner. It was really weird.
Frank Robb:That's hilarious. Yeah, they have issues and growls and chirps. Some species have pops and clicks they're all a little bit different. It's a study that I've worked on for quite a while is putting together the vocalizations of all the species. It helps when you go to another country somewhere to be able to speak whatever species of animal that is be able to say hey, please come here. Come here. Have a conversation with me. Let's let's have a chat. So I can catch you please. But it's they all they all sound very different. They like the American crocodile sounds very bird like in comparison to the American alligator. They're just they're all different tones pitches and it's they all have different dialects to depending on where they're from. It's like a person. Okay, so
Chuck Shute:when you've been able to study that and kind of like diagnose what the what the different sounds mean.
Frank Robb:Uh, yeah, I mean, you're guessing for the most part, you there's obviously there's contact their sounds whenever you make contact with one, their sounds when they're scared or upset their sounds whenever they're, when they're happy, or you're releasing them and they're talking to one another. There's different there's definitely different things there. For a lot of it, you're having to make some make a few assumptions, but it's just things from years and years of watching them and observing them.
Chuck Shute:Interesting. I also find it interesting that they they have 3000 teeth over the course of their lives like they they they lose them and just regrow them all the time.
Frank Robb:It depends on the animal. If it's a healthy animals, they'll keep regrown them so they grow like sno cones inside one another they're stacked up. So their teeth are hollow. They're all stacked inside of each other like a bunch of solo cups. It's not like sharks really fold out they're actually they actually have seat teeth that keep growing inside other tooth so that yeah, if it's a healthy animals, they'll keep growing teeth for a long time for for all their life. If they get some scarring or they get their gums scarred their teeth won't grow back it all kind of depends on what they go through. Occasionally you see to get impacted the girl on the wrong side their head to like horns. You're pretty awesome. Wow, that's typically alligator has at 40 and top 40 in the bottom. And then you know as they need replacements, they're automatically there and there's ready to go.
Chuck Shute:Wow. Yeah, so another thing that's kind of interesting about I guess it's kind of rare that a female reptiles would like carry and look after the babies But with alligators they do.
Frank Robb:Yeah. Females females will stay with the hatchlings, sometimes for a year. I mean, I've seen occasions where the females are with the hatchlings for multiple years. There's some spots again, down here on the Kennedy Space Center where you'll see generations of hatchlings together you'll see four or five, six years at different groups together, and the male and the female both together there are, there are instances where the male will also take care of the Youngs.
Chuck Shute:But then also, the female eats they eat the baby alligator right
Frank Robb:there that's they're an interesting group buddy ever disliked? It's just like, people. It's just like, what people? Yeah, some are. Some are a little strange. You know? I mean, they're, they're all individuals. They're all different. They all have different ideas on how things work.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, because it's something like they said that it could the litter could be from multiple mail alligators. So then sometimes they eat the ones they don't like or something like that. I don't I don't understand it. But yeah,
Frank Robb:it's, it's the second you think you understand something with wildlife for you. You kind of like put your thumb on it like, oh, man, that's the way it is. Every single time you see something and you go, man, I don't know nothing, either. I really know nothing. Yeah, I was always the oddball in the group. You know, I mean, where you go, that goes against anything I've ever learned. I'm not sure what to even say about that.
Chuck Shute:Right? Now. This is fashion. Fascinating stuff. Explain the it's not a hibernation period. But they go through this like dormancy thing or something where they go into a What does it call the gator hole?
Frank Robb:Yeah, well, so it just, it depends on the time of the year, you know, down here we're at in the Space Ghost, they're pretty much going all your year round, because it never really gets that cold. But they do have times where they'll find a spot to overwinter or relax. That's typically, you know, November to February, depending on how the how the winter seasons going. I know here in Florida, our first cold fronts, usually plus or minus a week of Halloween. So that's usually where you start seeing everybody kind of what we do, we call it a fall crawl where they all get up and crawl where they're gonna go stay at one spot. And you'll see him again in the springtime. But yet, they actually like a turtle, they can get cold stone too. So they can, everything will be real good. And they can be out in the open water and get super cold. And it actually it'll knock them out and just make them seem like they're dead. But they're not. They're just kind of dormant just in suspended animation pretty much.
Chuck Shute:And how long can they stay like that?
Frank Robb:I guess it depends. I mean, I've seen them frozen and solid ice too, and be able to fall back out the next day and be good to go. It's just, there's so tough man. If we were even a percentage as tough of these guys were, we'd be we'd be good to go.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, and so they're what do you call like an apex predator? Like they don't really have any predators. Except for is it the snapping turtle is that the only thing they fight with?
Frank Robb:Well, as you know, as when they're young, when they're first put out, everything eats them. And that's the whole thing with reptiles. Why we why reptiles have so many young when they're little, you know, snakes or alligators, or whatever it might be. Everything's trying to eat them birds, otters, other alligators, fish, turtles, you name it, everything's after him. Everything's trying to eat them. And as they get older, those things start to get fewer and fewer. But I mean up until they're four or five, six foot range. Otters are still eating them. Otters are crazy with an alligator. They'll pill on like a banana. It's the craziest thing ever seen. Bobcats are still eating them up until like the four or five foot size class here and there. It's not until they get to that probably seven or eight foot size class other than each other. There's not a whole lot messing with them.
Chuck Shute:Injuries so that makes sense why the moms are kind of have to look after a man.
Frank Robb:Oh yeah, their food for everything. It's that's the way reptiles in general work. Snakes and alligators, both snakes and crocodilians, both they have multiple young because it's only about one 100 or, you know one about three nests. That makes it to be a four foot animal. Okay, wow, interesting. And it's probably closer to one and 10 times that it makes it a 10 fee. Okay, so with everything stacked against them, buddy.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, and the other thing that's the predator is us is the frickin humans. So we talked about the Disney World thing, obviously stuff like that is bad. But you say a lot of the bad incidents happen because humans are feeding alligators. And then so then they they're not afraid of them. And then they bad things happen, right?
Frank Robb:Yeah, so an alligator is biggest strength is also his biggest weakness, which is his intelligence, right? It only takes them one time of seeing someone go out to a pond and feed the fish for the turtles or something out there where they can go man, I gotta work for a living. I can just go over here and weightless do throw some food in the water. I can pick it up. I can save all my energy. I'm good to go. You know he again. While those things were, he's out there every day at nine o'clock feeding the fish. I'm not gonna I'm gonna be right there. I'm going to catch myself some fish. I'm gonna eat some bread and man, the rest of the day is just a jam. Like I don't need to do anything else. They they're consistently thinking about ways to save energy, because energy is their money.
Chuck Shute:Hmm, is that that's probably not good for them too, though, right? isn't that bad for them? Like mentally? Or?
Frank Robb:Oh, I'm sure. When you're doing that, of course, you're making them more, more used to people. And that's one of these bad interactions are happening for sure. That's it makes it more likely for something crazy to happen again, do they have murder on their mind? Of course not. But it's going to make them more likely to approach a person, which is going to make the odds of that bad wildlife interaction go up and up.
Chuck Shute:So we have what is this thing because I saw like on tick tock or YouTube or whatever it was, it was like these women's swimming with alligators. And they're not even wearing a wetsuit around them. Like we're in like a bikini. I'm like, this seems like they're playing with fire here. Am I wrong?
Frank Robb:There's a lot of different people doing a lot of things right now, a lot of it's all about clicks and views. That's what, what most of it is, everybody wants to be a YouTube Hero. It's an a nameless thing. Facilier things they can do, the more clicks they're gonna get, which is what happens. People have kind of lost track of reality. And it's given, it's given people the whole wrong idea. And really, that kind of thing, in my opinion, is encouraging. It's moving us away from conservation, and even things that matter. It's bad information. It's one thing. I don't know, it's such a fine line between reality and it's like reality and reality TV. We know they're not the same thing. We know they're two different animals, one's entertainment. And who knows what the other one is. But reality is something that people kind of need to come back to, because we've completely lost it.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, I mean, it's, I feel like there's gonna be some, maybe they'll go viral, but I feel like some woman's gonna be swimming with an alligator and it's gonna bite her. And then it's, I mean, they get video that I guess it'll go viral. But then people are gonna get mad at the alligator. And it's like, they're just acting on instinct. The human has been in the idiot.
Frank Robb:Yeah, even putting stuff like that out there for people. You know, I mean, like, like a lot of these groups are doing. It's, it's, it's, you're, you're encouraging people to go do silly things. And that's where it all starts, unfortunately. Yeah. When sometimes like, oh, man, they got away with it. I can go get away with it, too. Yeah. Why? Why are we doing that? Yeah, it just makes me shake my head. Right, exactly.
Chuck Shute:Because some of the videos I've seen are just, they're not trying to make a video there. You know, like, I saw this one where the guy was fishing with his kid, and the kids getting his fish. And then this alligator comes up and steals the fish. And that wasn't like they weren't trying to make a viral that was actually kind of cool. It didn't hurt the kid just took his fish. And then if you seen the one where the guy's his puppy gets stolen from an alligator, and the guy jumps into the water and gets the puppy back.
Frank Robb:It was ironic how there was a camera pointed that wasn't as interesting. You think that was staged? I don't know, man. It was just it was very interesting. They raised some questions in my head that I was like, that was weird that there was a camera pointed that one weird spot. And you're like, that's interesting. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it was. I'm not saying one way or the other. It just kind of struck me as being a little bit odd.
Chuck Shute:That's interesting. Yeah, I guess I didn't think about that. You're right. Like, that would be pretty messed up. If somebody did that. Just to get the clicks or the views or whatever I've
Frank Robb:seen. I've seen so many crazy things with wildlife, that maybe more so than ever. I always I look at things and go. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know, man. It seems kind of weird. Like I see things like that. I'm like, I just it just raises little red flags go up. You know, they kind of start popping up and started kind of go start going. Well, I don't I don't know. Man. I wonder if I'm buying what you're selling.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, cuz you would know I mean, you're the expert on
Frank Robb:things just seeing it all. I've seen it all. I've seen some weird stuff. Yeah.
Chuck Shute:What some of the weirdest stuff you've seen just in the wild though.
Frank Robb:Well, I mean, it's, it's always different. It's funny here over the past couple of weeks, you know, past couple months. I've been doing doing some work and seeing more than ever alligators and manatees hanging out together. They don't ever have negative interactions. Actually, the man teasingly almost bully the alligators, but I'll be catching an alligator and see manatees like hanging out nose to nose with them the entire time won't catch them. Like they're having conversations this is you start seeing things that are sometimes you see weird stuff, you know? I don't know who knows if they're having a conversation about what but it's it kind of makes you wonder,
Chuck Shute:are there are there other friends so it's friendly. It's not? It
Frank Robb:is yeah, they honestly Manties will bully in the run them out of an area. There has never been a documented instance with an alligator in a manatee going at it just doesn't happen.
Chuck Shute:Okay, that's Wow, that's a fascinating one. Well, we got stuff we got to talk about your your big news story this Chicago incident with explain to my audience that what happened cuz I wasn't aware of this thing until I started in research on you. But I guess it was a big story in Chicago.
Frank Robb:Yeah. I just got back from Chicago over the weekend. was up there for for an event. Yeah. Wow. Where do I even start? So in 2019 in July of 2019, there was a gator that show up in Chicago. And it was a it was a big thing for them course not. There's not typically alligators in Chicago, it was somebody's pet they had taken and toss loose. And they had a fellow up there running around chasing it for a while. And he realized, I think they realized there was a bit above his pay grade. So they reached out the state of Florida, some different groups down here where I do research and they'll drop my name instead of hey, do you want the guy here's when the longest tenure guys in the state doing it. He's called animals and all kinds of situations call and talk to Frank. So I got a phone call. And at this point, remember watching it, it was on CNN, I'm watching them chase this alligator around a park in Chicago, and I'm kind of going what in the world, man, this is crazy. And they had a guy putting out live traps with chicken and peanut butters up and it was some kind of of like weird things I'm going I don't know what planet that makes any sense. But you know, hey, the guy's the guy doing what he can. He's trying to figure it out. I remember they called me we worked it out. They flew me up there. And I'm going to this park and some of the cars on the southwest side of Chicago. It's called Humboldt Park. And I pulled into this park and there's dozens of news crews. I mean, it become like a it become a big thing in Chicago, it was done with news crews of people selling buttons and T shirts. And there's food trucks. And like the whole community had come out to this thing. And it was the opposite. A lot of stuff we were just talking about where, you know, crocodilians sometimes get seen in a negative light. Yeah, this was something that brought like this entire community out and got them excited and brought them all together. And like, man, there's something cool we don't ever have. It's here right now. And we're so excited to see and everybody's like walking around. Like, he's got binoculars and they're looking for this little alligator in this park. And I went What in the world does get myself into this is insane. So I ended up telling him like, Look, if you guys want me to work this out, you got to shut the park down. This is a park that's in the center, like a million people, you know, in this on this part of Chicago, it's a busy busy to huge, busy Park. And they ended up shutting the park down and I went out there that night was able to call him out of where he was hiding huge park and hook him with a fishing rod catch him. And that just that was the whole thing. I ended up throwing our first video to Cubs game a lot of blessings come from that it was it was it was like an amazing thing after amazing thing, which wasn't what I was looking for, you know, I just wanted to go up there and help an animal that was in distress. And I was I was hoping to catch him get on a plane and get the heck out of dodge man and nobody even know I was there like a ghost in the darkness, you know, just there and gone. But also all these other amazing things that come up it actually WGN from Chicago had come has come down here and called gators with us and done research with us like Kennedy Space Center. A lot of amazing stories out there from all that found out like a I guess a year after that, that I had a heart issue that I didn't know about. And I do this work because I love it. You know, I mean I do my I do this job because I have a lot of fun with it. i i I get something from it. I get to work with an animal I love. I get to give back to people and help people and it's just it's been my calling since I was a kid. So I just been been something I've always enjoyed. Good and find a doctor, you got heart surgeries, I had chest surgery, the kid had a bunch of had a bunch of scar tissue in my chest, WG and up there in Chicago helped me from the doctor who did my surgery ended up doing the surgery, and then they fundraise the money and paid all my health bills off. So in my opinion as a person of faith, it makes me understand why it was put there in the first place. And this weird story. And it's really weird situation me it's one of them grace of God kind of things. I mean, there's zero doubt about it. In my opinion. There's been a lot of other amazing things from that too. But that's some of the highlights.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, that's Wow, that's amazing. That's that's such a cool story. Such a good thing for you, but also for the work that you're doing. So He's shining a light on this and bringing awareness right
Frank Robb:no joke. Yes, sir. Sure.
Chuck Shute:That's really good. Yeah, so but that alligator they call him the champ chance the snapper is that one of
Frank Robb:India they had a naming contest to block clubs. Chicago did it which actually I was just up there for their five year anniversary. Last week. They their whole their whole nonprofit. It's a it's a media nonprofit. They got started really with this story. This this is what put them on the map. And now they're, you know, they're a huge organization. They're in Chicago doing great things. This story has blessed so many people you know, but they had a naming contest of the alligator It was between Frank Lloyd bite Ruth Bader Ginsburg Croc Obama or Champa snapper and they had like everybody in the community is voting on it and stuff and ended up voting in a chance to snapper which I guess is a play on chance to rapper Yeah, we'll never heard anything from Chance the Rapper but I I feel bad saying that. But I didn't want it out, I
Chuck Shute:guess. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So I heard you talking about to where you said that. You were able to tell? Because people like how the hell did alligator get in Chicago and you were able to tell based on his snout, that in his in his eyes that the snout had been like pushed up against It was the form because he had pushed up against like a door cage or something and the eyes were lighter because he'd been in darkness. So you were able to tell that this this thing had been like locked up in a cage basically.
Frank Robb:Yeah, he had been in captivity his whole life. Yeah, exactly what you're saying you've been a container too small for him. But you kind of kept his nose pushed in and his nose was bent up. He's uh, he doesn't have those issues anymore. He's a big beautiful alligator you know, so they that's good to hear. They were looking for somewhere for him to be up there in Chicago, but the The Field Museum and the Lincoln Park Zoo and all those guys there, they all had alligators. They didn't have any room for any more alligators. And the St. Augustine alligator farm down here in Florida ended up taking him Southwest Airlines put him on a plane and flew him down here special. It was pretty dang neat.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, so they never caught the guy that I mean, well, I'm assuming this was some sort of illegal pet that somebody brought Chicago
Frank Robb:from what I gather. They're common and drug houses in Chicago. So I'm in my on my second trip up. I got a call from one of the commanders one of the districts up there in Chicago, and he's like, Hey, Frank, so understand you're in town. Yeah, I'm in town. He goes, Well, you said a drug raid and we got this Gator. Can you take it back home with you? I said sir, right. I can't just stick it on a plane it doesn't I can just stick him in my bag and take him back on the plane with me. It doesn't work that way. But like it has to be you know, it's a federally protected species. It has to be done the correct way but they apparently it's a it's a common thing and drug houses in Chicago.
Chuck Shute:Just like they get these alligators just for fun or something or
Frank Robb:I don't know if it's their version of a pitbull, or I don't know, I don't know what the idea that they think it's up and protecting things or what but I've heard about it on multiple instances up there.
Chuck Shute:Wow, that is something I did not know about. That is really bizarre. Okay. Yeah. Cuz I was gonna ask you, How common is it? That people keep alligators as pets? either legally or illegally?
Frank Robb:Um, there's, there's some people that do it the right way. You know, it's, there's not not many. But there's I'm sure there's tons of people. I hear stories quite often or people that keep them illegally. I know up there. They said they get them. They get them with Chicago Animal Care and Control quite often.
Chuck Shute:Okay. Wow, that's really drug houses. Okay. I just never would have. This is why I love doing interviews. I learned so much. But yeah, so you mentioned earlier about the alligators, how you're learning from them and the endocrine system. So yeah, talk about that, how we can learn cures for humans, because I have something about the alligator blood can lead to antibiotics and their, their blood has like antibiotic and antiviral properties like built into it automatically.
Frank Robb:It does. It's one of the top immune systems in the world, for many, for many reasons. But that was the easy way to break it down here. They have antimicrobial and anti viral and bacterial properties part of their blood. So their blood kills every known virus and bacteria on contact, like one drop of alligator blood will wipe out the the AIDS virus, right, then it'll knock and it'll knock it out. Where this gets complicated with people is the fact that them being a cold blooded animal, they have a nucleated red blood cell. So that's not something it's easily transferable over to us. And they have a and they have a coagulation factor that we still can't quite understand what's what allows them to like lose a limb, or lose any kind of body part. And their blood turns to Jelly, like, almost immediately. And it'll you know, it'll almost heal itself right then and there, it'll coagulate and they're good to go. They'll stop bleeding. It's something that'll probably I mean, it could, if we can figure this stuff out. There's huge metal medical advancements from it. And a lot of the research we've been working on for ages is actually cancer research to because we've found out that they can, they can repair their own chromosomes. So the University of Louisville is taking their blood and treating it with chromium, watching those chromosomes break, and then try to trying to re engineer how they're how they're going about that. Because that's not the cure to like one type of cancer that's secure to everything. It's a cure to a lot, a lot of things that LS
Chuck Shute:Wow, fascinating. Okay, just want to make sure people don't drink alligator blood. That's probably not a good idea. But
Frank Robb:no, no, no, no, no alligator blood cocktails, please.
Chuck Shute:But we can learn from it by studying it and like you said, reverse engineering it and such.
Frank Robb:Yeah, there's tons that they're not telling you. But there's a handful of doctors out there right now and universities that are working on that specifically.
Chuck Shute:Okay, and then Yeah, talk about the the how the alligator like the wetlands and like how we because they also the alligators. I read something about like the increased plant diversity and provide habitat for the other animals like it's, it's an important part of the ecosystem, right?
Frank Robb:Yeah, they're a keystone species for multiple reasons. You know, like we were talking about earlier, we touched on the feeding of the other wildlife which they provide food for everything. They also you know, them making caves is a big part of providing habitat for other animals. They'll they'll go in a bank and they'll dig it area out and they'll get in there and get set up that's home for turtles and fish and all kinds of other things. They Do spread like a lot of animals, they do spread seeds and things around to as they move around. They are the American alligators. The only conservation success story when it comes to crocodilians. 84% 85% of the crocodilian species around the world are critically endangered. I mean, on the verge of being wiped out the alligators, they only want us ever made a comeback.
Chuck Shute:Okay, yeah, so they they also eat these, what are these things called the new Trias that are those things cause a lot of damage to the wetlands and so
Frank Robb:nutrients armored catfish. Pythons. You name the thing. It's not supposed to be there. Alligators are eaten.
Chuck Shute:What was that? Yes, you're gonna pythons. I was gonna ask you about that. Cuz you had this video on your Instagram where there was a giant Python in a ladies restroom and it was behind the toilet. I mean, how did the person find it and hopeful I mean, it's so if you just sat down on a toilet you didn't know that snake was there? Would it have attacked her or like
Frank Robb:no, it was just it was a ball python. It was just somebody somebody's pet that it got loose, which is the story of the day in Florida. You know? I mean, dear goodness people, people letting letting their pets loose is just it's one more thing. But yeah, the state of Florida called me about that and said, yeah, there's a Python in a restroom. Can you go pick it up? And I said, Yeah, I reckon I can you know, and there you go. Whenever there was, that was something somebody had spent some money on that was a people spend a month so much money on these morphs are these non natural pythons. So they they breed them with each other and get these what they call morphs are different genetic. turnouts have them variations and they have all these fancy names for them and pay crazy money for them. If you've never heard of this, you should look it up. Yeah. Ball Python morphs. And you'll see every kind of crazy name you've ever heard of in your entire life and people spending stupid amounts of money on them. So why is with one of those guys that they lost? So they
Chuck Shute:try to they morph it to make it a bigger, more vicious or what like scarier.
Frank Robb:No, just changing colors, colors and patterns. That's what they're all about. Okay, people are never, you know how you know how we are, man, nothing's ever good enough the way it is. Let's make it let's make it our own and do something fancy with it. I kind of prefer things the way they are in the first place. But I'm a weirdo
Chuck Shute:that way, especially with wildlife and nature. Like you don't want to screw with Mother Nature. I feel like it's gonna come back to bite you. I mean, that's
Frank Robb:just what we do. But yeah,
Chuck Shute:that's what the alligators are. They're doing good. You said but because there was some issues with the even though they have tough immune systems, there's issues with diseases jumping from spear species, and you don't you said there's no answer to this?
Frank Robb:Yeah, it's, it's things that are being worked on right now. You know, UF is doing a lot of that stuff, there's more you bring, that's the real danger with these exotic or invasive species, or the diseases that they bring with them and spread. It's not the fact that they're here. Once these animals are here, and already set up which they are in Florida, you're not really going to get rid of them. It's what it's the diseases and the parasites and the fungus and the different the fungi they bring with them that you got to worry about. It's not the specifically the animal itself. It's so It's so crazy. mean like pythons in South Florida. That ship has sailed buddy, they're here to stay. There's people that are working on trying to reduce their number and doing things but they're you're not going to ever get them all out of there. And so you could argue that about that about them about Cuban treefrogs. About a million other things in Florida that are that are here. And number iguana Iguana is ain't going nowhere, either. You know, it's just it's something people have to wrap their heads around.
Chuck Shute:Because some of these things were not natural to these environments, and people brought them as pets or something. And then they just flourished.
Frank Robb:Yeah, yep. It's people moving things around. Okay, so the thing is up like we do all the time, that's what that's what we do.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. So what is how do we is there a way to To fix this, just by having these conversations and trying to bring awareness or
Frank Robb:talking about it? You know, education is always the key to everything, like we were talking about with the alligator feeding issues. It's up and it's been being talked about forever, yet, it still continues. These wildlife issues are things that been getting talked about forever, but they still continue. I think, you know, it's like with pollution, maybe you know, it's the same kind of situation until you can get everybody on the same page. Understanding, look, we have a major problem. It's time for us all to get on board and start making a difference. Until you get everybody to get on board, you ain't gonna really be able to make a huge difference. You need everybody to be on the same page, you're gonna have a clean cup of water. And, you know, there's 100 people around that water and nobody's putting oil on it, but one person, one person puts the oil in the whole cups ruined. You got it. You gotta get everybody on board.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, well, um, so it sounds like the TIC tock and some of the shit is making it's going taking us backwards is what you're saying?
Frank Robb:Well, social media when it comes to people doing silly things as a whole, that's a whole thing. But when it comes to, you know, again, a lot of these issues, the it's these are hard conversations that people have to be real about and be given And good information and hoping that everyone's jumping on board and going, Yeah, let's do let's do that. Let's make a difference. Everybody get together and make a difference. And until we do, it's just you're kind of just spinning your
Chuck Shute:wheels. Yeah, cuz I've seen alligators and crocodiles. I mean, I think sharks and there's so many animals that are so cool. But then sometimes they get a bad rap like, Oh, these are evil creatures and like, like sharks, especially, I think there's a lot of like, oh, you need to kill sharks because they hurt people. And it's like, no, that's like, why that's their instinct will
Frank Robb:hurt more people. Animal hurts. You know, what's that? People hurt more people than any animal hurts people.
Chuck Shute:Right? Well, yeah, exactly. It didn't. So and you can hunt alligators in Florida, is that's a that's a big money.
Frank Robb:That's a big way the state makes makes money for the other programs. And for the for that program, too, is you have the public water hunt, they call it. I forget how it works. It's something you can spend a certain amount of money, maybe it's 2500 bucks. So I think if you're a resident, and they'll give you to two tags to go out and get to alligators, and lawns,
Chuck Shute:and it still doesn't it's not enough. I mean, they're not obviously giving too many tags to where it's going to hurt the population though.
Frank Robb:Yeah, that one's above my paygrade, buddy.
Chuck Shute:I mean, because that's something that seems like that you'd be concerned about? I mean, I guess if there's 4 million I guess they're they're doing
Frank Robb:4 million in Louisiana. We have a we have a solid million here in the state of Florida.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. Okay.
Frank Robb:I don't know if they have a public Waterhen Louisiana or not? I'm honestly not sure. But I know Georgia does now and I know that. I believe South Carolina does North Carolina was in the talks about it. I don't know they ever went there. I'm not sure if Louisiana does or not.
Chuck Shute:Do you think I mean, so ethically? Do you think it's wrong to hunt alligators?
Frank Robb:I think there's so if we're going outside when we're not talking about hunting, in general, if we're talking about the need of these animals to be taken, sometimes, if an animal is hurt a person that animal has to go, it's a sad, it's a sad thing. Again, it's it's terrible for the animal and the person, or you know, whatever was hurt. But there's some times where it's the right idea. move on from an animal that talks about, you're talking about hunting about hunting them. Yeah. Just try to stay away from that one.
Chuck Shute:Yeah, do you have you pets yourself in your house?
Frank Robb:I do. I have a army of Shelties. I have three Shelties. And we keep we need some alligators for educational programs, but not here in my place.
Chuck Shute:Okay, but you're working with I mean, you're with them all the time, like out in the wild. And every day, every day. And, and snakes too, and possums and what other animals we work with?
Frank Robb:Yeah, so we So through my nonprofit years, it's environmental education, awareness, research, support and services. We do Dr. Gator work. We do some crocodile work, like I said in Belize. And we, we also do biodiversity studies. So we'll go to different properties. And we'll set up a race and look at animals traveling back and forth between different habitat types to help these different areas update their land management plan. See what's there see the health of the environment and the different areas? And yeah, it's every day is different stuff. Snakes, of all kinds and flavors, as you can imagine a lot of different mammals. It's whatever's traveling back and forth through it.
Chuck Shute:What is it? So the biggest snakes are anacondas, right?
Frank Robb:Yeah, we don't have to worry about those in Florida. Thankfully.
Chuck Shute:No, but so is that is there like that movie? Anaconda? Like, is there any? Is there any truth to that? Like can a snake eat a person?
Frank Robb:Sure. There's snakes species that can eat people, for sure. That's like a giant telephone pole. You know, I mean, Anaconda. It's like, that's like, imagine walking across and tripping on a telephone pole in the middle of water that would probably be knee deep or deeper. You be having a bad day, if you were waiting around in water with telephone poles that could eat you. Yeah.
Chuck Shute:That'd be some scary shit. That's a scary one.
Frank Robb:That'd be the way you'd want to spend your day. Yeah, do you?
Chuck Shute:I mean, do you ever worry about getting hurt from the snakes or the alligators? Like just working with I mean, because it's a there's a risk involved right?
Frank Robb:Now I've caught 1000s and 1000s of alligators. Sure there's risk involved, but you you manage the risk by using this thing, the good Lord put your head and call the brain, you know, I mean, and using some tools, yeah, it's not like the goofy TV shows that again, aren't aren't reality where you see, you know what, today we're gonna, we're gonna swim in the bottom of the pond, we're going to make sure the hook is on the alligator very well. No, that's not the real world. You, you catch the animal, you use tools and you use your brain. And if you've done it enough times, you know safely what you can get away with, you know, okay, safely, I can do this, this and this and I'll be okay. And you do it the same way methodically every single time until you need to. Sometimes you got to vary it a little bit here there because of course, things are gonna change. But you do it the same way. You know what's safe, you do it the right way for you and the animal and you move on to the next one.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. And it's somebody told me I was I told him that I was having you on and they're from Florida and they said, Oh, well, I heard that. If you see an alligator in the wild, you're running a zigzag and then I heard you say that's total BS. So it gets Vader's gonna get you. They're gonna, they're gonna get you. It's gonna be too quick. You're not going to run.
Frank Robb:Let's say you meet the one the rogue alligator like the one 1000. I mean, that has murder on his mind. I mean, it's legit. One 1000 Probably more than he's a legitimate rogue. Bad dude. Just like people, you probably meet one 1000 People they go, man, I don't want to hang out with that guy. He's bad news. Well, you see, you meet that one, and he, he wants to catch you, and you're on edge of the water. You're not going to ever know what's even coming. It's gonna be it's there, there's probably gonna be a splash. You're just gonna be gone. And I've always taken peace on that. But you're not going to he's not going to chase you. You're not going to have time to run in zigzags. You're not going to even have time to go off poop. It's just gonna be done. Yeah, it's gonna if someone
Chuck Shute:to avoid those areas where they might be working.
Frank Robb:Yeah, you don't you don't want to be around water, dawn or dusk you don't want to be you don't want to be around the edge of the water knelt down anytime in the day. You just it's it's those common sense kind of things. You know, people have lost common sense and, and all aspects of life. And everybody is so complacent these days that thinks nothing can happen to me. Nothing. I'm safe all the time. Nothing can happen to me. My awareness is super, super low. And a second you think that stuff is when something terrible happens? It doesn't have to be with wildlife. It's just that's when terrible things happen when you get complacent.
Chuck Shute:Huh? That's good advice. Absolutely. Well, so again, your your nonprofit is called the E ARS. I have the right
Frank Robb:EA RSS you have two years of extra economic stress. Okay, we actually have a podcast as well.
Chuck Shute:Yeah. Great. And I'll put the website in the show notes and people can donate to that. Right. That's
Frank Robb:on our main page there. There's a donation button for sure. Yeah, it's it's it's it costs money to keep everything running and keep keep working with all this wildlife. And any help is always appreciated very much. It's a big part of educational outreach and stuff we do as well. So
Chuck Shute:absolutely. Very cool. Well, hopefully in maybe, did you get some grants or something or the government money that would they could kick in that could help this out as well?
Frank Robb:We're working on whatever we can figure out, buddy, believe me,
Chuck Shute:we're working on it. Okay, well, hopefully,
Frank Robb:I've yet to win a grant. But it doesn't mean I haven't tried their Lord doesn't mean I haven't tried.
Chuck Shute:Alright, well, hopefully this brings a little bit more awareness to people maybe get a few extra donations in. Either way. I appreciate you doing it. And taking the time I learned a lot of really interesting stuff.
Frank Robb:So appreciate brother. Thank you for taking the time for me. All right.
Chuck Shute:Thanks so much. I'll see you later. See, buddy? Well, I found a lot of that information extremely interesting, especially the stuff about alligators being common and drug houses, crazy stuff, so very educational. If you want to help spread awareness, you can share this episode on social media. Follow Frank on social media, and if you can make a donation to his nonprofit, the link to his website and all the social social media stuff is in the show notes. You can support the show by following me and the show on social media. And of course, make sure you subscribe to YouTube for exclusive content and right now everything is free. So take advantage of that. I appreciate your support of the show and our guests. Have a great rest of your day. Shoot for the moon.
