Chuck Shute Podcast

Jeff Pilson (Foreigner, ex Dokken)

April 20, 2023 Jeff Pilson Season 4 Episode 334
Chuck Shute Podcast
Jeff Pilson (Foreigner, ex Dokken)
Show Notes Transcript

Jeff Pilson is musician, songwriter and music producer. He is currently the bass player for Foreigner and was a long time member of Dokken. He has also been involved with several other bands including Dio, Steel Dragon, The End Machine & Black Swan.  He  is also now a member of Revolution Saints alongside Joel Hoekstra & Deen Castronovo and they have a new album called “Eagle Flight.” We discuss all this plus growing up in Washington, rocking out with Paul McCartney, the future of rock music and more!

00:00 - Intro
00:36 - Friendship with Slash
03:25 - Pill-Sound Studios
05:00 - Learning Production
06:15 - Growing Up in Washington
09:57 - Education & Seattle Music Scene
11:48 - Moving to San Francisco & Networking
13:43 - Evovling & Reinventing Yourself
14:35 - Revolution Saints
16:20 - Singing & Fronting
17:36 - Playing Live & Creating Music
19:45 - Legal Issues, Dokken & Crue
22:30 - Mick Mars Solo Record
24:20 - Show with Led Zeppelin 
25:30 - Rocking Out with Paul McCartney
27:03 - Meeting Chris Squier & Cool to Fans
29:00 - Rockstar Personas & Too Serious
30:55 - Image, Music Business & Future of Rock
37:50 - Future Plans for Jeff
39:45 - Virtual Meditation Class
41:43 - Outro

Jeff Pilson website:
https://jeffpilson.wordpress.com/

Jeff Pilson Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialJeffPilson/

Meditation:
https://hotforyogascv.com/

Chuck Shute website:
https://chuckshute.com/

📸 by Daryl Bughman Photography 

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Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!

Chuck Shute:

Okay, Jeff pilson is my guest today Jeff is of course the current bass player for foreigner, former bass player for Dokken and is also involved with a ton of projects as a producer and a musician. His some of his most recent musician projects include the end machine, Black Swan, and revolution saints. So we're going to talk a lot about his amazing career highlights his thoughts on the current state of rock, his future plans and so much more. Stay right there. We'll go ahead and just dive right in. I'm actually it's funny because I just had a guy I don't you remember Chris Vaughn doll? He was in a band called Perry Street. Yeah.

Jeff Pilson:

He's a good friend of mine. Okay, when we did we didn't see him this year in Vegas, but I saw him last year when we did our residency in Vegas. Yeah, he and his wife are good friends of ours, and we love them dearly.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, it's just funny because I had him on the show. And he, he brought you up. He was talking about slash. And he goes, Yeah, we were at Jeff pilson house and I was like, Wait, like Jeff and slash? We're friends. He's like, Oh, yeah. Everybody was friends with with Jeff back in the day. So I didn't know that. I don't know if slash wrote about you and his book. But tell me about your friendship was slash that just intrigues me a little bit?

Jeff Pilson:

Ah, okay. Well, I mean, I met slash, you know, even before, right as they were coming out. You know, before they were big and famous, I remember having some, you know, we would drink and talk at the rainbow. Not a lot. I mean, we weren't close at that point at all. But you know, there was a little bit of that then as they got famous. Steven Adler is one of my best friends and is to this day, one of my best friends. So towards the end of Stephens tenure, so 8990 round in there. I started hanging with slash a bit more, you know, I mean, at first it was kind of a drinking thing, then I actually got sober. But we kind of maintained a friendship then at one point, he was, he was hanging in my house quite a bit. And that's for kind of there was stuff going on, but you don't have to know about all that. But it sounds like the good stuff. Yeah. No,

Chuck Shute:

but he's there stuff going on. But this is when you're sober. So are you kind of like the babysitter at this point.

Jeff Pilson:

No, not no. Just just hanging. We were just hanging, you know, I mean,

Chuck Shute:

you jam Do you play any music together?

Jeff Pilson:

We really didn't. And I wish we would have because I mean, we talked about it. But I have jammed with slash, of course over the years. And I just, you know, I've maintained a friendship with him. I mean, it's not a close friendship by any means. But you know, we talk about Steve, you know, we keep in touch about Stephen a lot. And you know, he wants to make sure Stephen is doing good, which he is. And he knows that Stephen and I are real close. So there's that and then you know, then it's just fun stuff. Like, I got our tour bus. Last year in Europe. I walked out of the tour bus, and there's a doll, a slash doll with guitar, you know, top hat and cigarette and everything. And so I had to take a picture of that and send it to him. And I said, Are you stalking me?

Chuck Shute:

That's funny. Yeah. And like he played on Stevens, one of Steve Stevens solo records, the one that was just called Adler

Jeff Pilson:

that right you produced right that he did that right here. So,

Chuck Shute:

okay, so yes, that your suit? That's what he called pill Sound Studios.

Jeff Pilson:

He'll sound yes, that you are seeing. Yeah, explain to me that because

Chuck Shute:

I'm thinking about doing a home studio, I mean, for podcasting, but I'm assuming it would be kind of similar. Do you have any advice for building a home studio?

Jeff Pilson:

Well, you're gonna want to make sure that the sound is decent. So you notice I have see all those baffles and everything that I have. Yeah. So lots of sound reinforcement.

Chuck Shute:

Does that really make a big difference? Well, I

Jeff Pilson:

mean, probably more for music than it does for casting stuff. But you know, it helps when you're listening that it's a controlled environment. You don't want to have too much bass that you know, shoots up that then when you take it to another system that sounds bass shy, and all that kind of thing.

Chuck Shute:

Want especially everything drums would be the because that's so loud, it could echo and then, right? Well, yeah,

Jeff Pilson:

although the drums are in an echoey room, the room that I have for the drums there, I purposely have a different surfaces. So there's stone, right and back to the drums, which given a nice reflection, there's wood on the floor and on the walls, and then there's fabrics. So with all three of those surfaces, I get a nice reflection on the drums, which you actually want because you want the drums to sound big and like they're, you know, resonating. But that in here, when I'm listening to everything I want to control so that I'm not hearing random frequencies that aren't really there.

Chuck Shute:

Gotcha. How did so how did you learn all this production stuff? Because obviously produce in addition to playing bass, is it just through all the recording you've done? I mean, yeah, yeah, sure. I just experienced it's trial and error. And yeah, and

Jeff Pilson:

I mean, like, ever since I was a kid I've loved. I've loved the whole recording process. And I'm fascinated by it. So, I mean, I was the kid that had, you know, the I had a reel to reel tape recorder, I'd record on that, you know, and maybe play guitar and sing and then I have my cassette machine and playback the reel to reel and record the cassette and sing harmonies along and you know, that kind of thing. I was one of those guys doing that at 16 years old. So I've always loved the process. And always had a real curiosity about it. And I've been fortunate enough to work with some amazing people. I mean, the Jeff workmen's, the Tom Orman's, the Michael Wagner's the wind, Davis's the Neil Kernan. You know, I mean, I've worked the Keith Olsen's. I mean, the list goes on of the incredible producers, engineers that I've worked with. So I've tried to learn as much by osmosis as I can. And, and I love it. You know, when you when you love something, you know, you do it? Well.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. So just learning from all of those accounts. Amazing. And all the people that you worked with, tell me about, I was so curious, because one of the first things I noticed when I started researching you is that you're from Washington, kind of like you grew up in Longview, Washington. I know where that is. I'm from Seattle, I actually applied for a job in Camus, which is like, I don't know, 40 minutes from there or something. I think it's Camus Washington. It's like South. Yeah, a little further. Yep. Yeah. And then there's a story of Oregon is kind of like a little. There's also around there, which is like, where the Goonies and all these movies were filmed. But talking about growing up in Longview. I mean, that was when you were what, like, 1316 you moved there. So I moved

Jeff Pilson:

there when I was 13. Um, well, you know, the thing is, I had never been I, you know, I was coming from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, I lived in a really nice suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, that was the sixth rated school district in the country. So very, and I had friends there that are still friends to this day. But I moved back when I move west. And I go into the school system that was actually a year behind. So my seventh or eighth, I'm sorry, my eighth grade year, was an academic repeat of my seventh grade year in Wisconsin. So I was, you know, that, that I think, started me on a path of, you know, I wanted to I just wanted to play music. I was in this small town, I felt, you know, out of place and you know, all the, the strange feelings you feel as a kid when you're somewhere new. So music became my, my outlet and my, my saved salvation, really. So every day, I would come home and just play along with records. And that was my, that was my school.

Chuck Shute:

So playing by yourself mostly, then. Yeah, I mean,

Jeff Pilson:

if the first couple years, sure, you know, you'll learn to play along with records. And then I started jamming with people, probably about the time I was 14, I want to say, and yeah, it's been pretty hard. And you have well, actually a 13 when I did move to Washington, I met some friends fairly soon. We didn't have a drummer but you know, we played guitars and I had my bass and so there was there was the that early momentum of of playing. But yeah, between playing along with records, and playing with other musicians who are also developing, it's a great way to learn.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, and then Didn't you also like you weren't you worked at a music store? And then you tell them? Yeah, tell them tell them out. It's a story about how you, you convinced your high school to give you like a waiver or something that you could work on music and it was awesome.

Jeff Pilson:

Okay, so so starting when I was 15, so I think it was a sophomore. I started managing this music store because it's called Bob and Corky is musical emporium and guitar shop in Longview, Washington and Corky the owner of the shop, he we just had this great relationship he was you know, he was probably in his 30s I want to guess so he seemed old. But he trusted me and he taught me how to manage the music store because then I could be there while he's at work because he worked in the factory in Longview. So it was great. I mean, I loved working there. But because of that in my senior year Yes, I got this waiver I got my school to accept this waiver program where one period a day might have even been two periods but there's at least one all I had to do for the whole quarter was write one song which I could do in a day so so I would use that time to either jam at the music store or I'd go up in the in the music room at the at the school and you know, play and write something would it ever but yeah, I my senior year was was a gift. Yeah, that's

Chuck Shute:

cool. So and then I know you went to University of Washington. I'm not sure how long you stayed there. But tell me about your thoughts on music and education because I just had the singer of up and coming band called Dead Poets Society. And he went to the Berklee School of Music, which I think is one of the most prestigious music schools. And he says, basically, it's a waste of time other than networking with other musicians. But you learn a lot of the other stuff just by plane and bands and things like that. Do you agree?

Jeff Pilson:

I do. And honestly, my time at the University of Washington music program, I had a wonderful bass teacher string bass teacher. He was the first first chair string basis with the Seattle Symphony. Great, great, great player and teacher. And that was, that was great. But the classes were very old school, traditional classical. So they, you know, I mean, I'm glad I know music theory and all that kind of stuff. But but really, yeah, it's it's it's out there getting out there playing and that's, that's the nitty gritty.

Chuck Shute:

Were you playing in bands in Seattle during that time? Like, the Seattle scene with was Queens right around there?

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah. Yeah, cuz this is seven, mid 70s. Mind you, so Okay. Yeah. So um, yeah, there were there wasn't a huge scene in Seattle, which is why I ended up leaving at the time. What but I was involved in the prod community because I was a total prod guy back then, you know? Yeah. I mean, Chris Squire was my guy. So yes, Genesis ELP, gentle giant. That was that was my stuff. And we had a little bit of a scene in Seattle, that had that I was in a band called Christmas. But then it kind of faded out. Because at the end of the 70s, all that stuff, just, you know it, it got died a horrible death. And so that's when I kind of shifted over going more towards hard rock.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. And then you moved to San Francisco and became friends with Mike varney. Well, what made you choose San Francisco as opposed to LA or New York or?

Jeff Pilson:

Well, because my after the the week after my senior year of high school, my best friend and I, we huddled we got ourselves down to Northern California. I don't even I still don't know how we did this. But we, we flew down there. And somehow, I don't even remember how we did it. But we had no money. But we moved down there because we had joined this band. I on my spring break, I had joined a band that was in the Bay Area. Sir, I'd have something to do when I got out of school. So I came here. I showed up with no money, nowhere to live. And a guy with me that he didn't even know. But he put up but he put up with it. And so I had a band that I joined when I when they went down there. Well, of course that lasted for the summer. But in that summer, I met a lot of really interesting people, including Mike varney. So when I went back to Seattle in the fall to go to school, that's when you know, that whole Seattle experience happened. When that fell apart. Then I decided, well, the next logical place is the other one I know, which is San Francisco. And I knew Mike varney. And so when I got down there, and very soon after I got down there, the the rock Justice Project happened that Mike was involved in with Marty Balin from the starship. And so that they kind of drew me into that. And so there was there was a lot of good stuff that started happening.

Chuck Shute:

Okay, and then that's also where you met. Did you meet Paul Taylor in San Francisco as well?

Jeff Pilson:

I did. Yeah. You ended up rooming with

Chuck Shute:

him. So all these connections? It seems like a lot of networking for you. Is that a big part of your success? You feel like

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, but by happenstance, you know, I I've never been like Mr. schmooze II network a guy but um, but by happenstance, yes, I am.

Chuck Shute:

Because it's interesting like with foreigner, you know, you and Kelly Hanson are both in that which is I think is so cool. But you know, you're not the guy from Dhaka and Kelly Hanson is not the singer from Hurricane Now you keep you guys keep evolving. What how do you what is the secret to that? Like guys like you and Kelly, how do you continually reinvent yourselves? So you're not just this one band thing that you know, that happened?

Jeff Pilson:

It's funny, I don't feel like I necessarily do any reinventing at all. I just feel like I do my my thing. And, and by staying involved and active and passionate and committed, I think you you naturally change because that's what the circumstances call for. So yeah, really, it's not like an attempt to always want to evolve. It's just an attempt to always do my best and give my best. And it must

Chuck Shute:

be working because you just keep getting work. And so obviously, we got to talk about the new project revolution saints which you say I just played bass on it, but obviously being just even referred to have that that's a good gig. I mean you're working with

Jeff Pilson:

I love it. And I love the fact that I just have to play bass on it because I produce other records. So this is kind of fun to just be the bass player. And I have infinite faith and Alessandro who is the producer, writer for revolution saints. We have a tremendous working real arrangement so, so yeah, for me, it's a treat. And I love it. And you know, Dean's I mean, just to sit and listen to Dean's voice to me is enough.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. explain to people like, would you how do you describe this music? Cuz to me obviously Dean's the drummer from Germany. It sounds there's very there's vibes of journey I mean maybe it's a little bit heavier

Jeff Pilson:

and heavier. That's exactly if I were to describe it, I would describe it as a heavier journey. It says if journey wanted to really be a mainstream rock band again.

Chuck Shute:

Okay, and so on this one you just play bass, but maybe on the next one would you maybe sing, co write maybe co produce or

Jeff Pilson:

there was actually two records written in the can when I joined. So I played on the first one, which is the one coming out today? No, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. Anyway, um, so for me now because I get the advance copy. Okay, right. And then. And then there's already another record that we've all played on, that's indicated, okay, later on this summer, we are going to start writing for the third one, which I'm sure will come out so well into 2025. But we're gonna start writing that over the summer. So that'll be very exciting. There's already a couple songs that I've thrown in that that we're going to work on. So it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be really fun.

Chuck Shute:

So you said like, you'd like that you could just play bass. So talk about like, different jobs you do in music producing playing bass songwriting, but also singing, you're in the span worn piece where you're the frontman? Did you like that? Was there advantages? I mean, obviously nice. Like, you're kind of in charge, and you have a great singing voice. I thought,

Jeff Pilson:

well, thank you. Um, I yeah, I love fronting. But I don't, I just don't feel honestly that my voice is special enough to really warrant a band around it and go to play, I do have a lot of material that I work on, that's very different than a lot of the stuff that I release with other bands. Someday, I'll probably put out some kind of a solo record just to make that artistic statement. And I'll sing on that, and I'll do a I'll do most of the instruments on that. But as far as fronting i don't, i i rather I get more of a thrill of listening to better singers, to be perfectly honest with you. So I would rather be in a situation with better singers. And when I'm producing I feel as a singer I, I make for a good vocal producer. But I would rather do that than then then just say myself, I really would.

Chuck Shute:

Do you prefer playing on stage and playing bass? And like in foreigner, you're playing the same songs? Or is it more of a thrill to create new music? Or is it both just different?

Jeff Pilson:

Well, it's both but different. I mean, yes. Because I'm on year 20. With foreigner, you know, yeah, there's a little bit of like, the grass is always greener. So whenever I see a recording studio, which is whenever I come home, I'm in it, because I love it. And I love to record, I love the recording process. I will do this as much as I can, until foreigner ends and then when foreigner ends, I'll probably do it even more. So. But I wonder, well, will I get to a point in a couple of years wrong this playing live? I don't know.

Chuck Shute:

But for now, you're going to continue to to to I mean, well, the foreigner ends, you could tour with one of these other the end machine or Black Swan

Jeff Pilson:

could happen. And yeah, I mean, foreigners going to tour till the end of 2024. For sure. Okay. But yes, maybe that does open up that revolution, saints are in machine or Black Swan could go out there and play at some point, that would be great. I never like to, you know, make a commitment about that to the public. Because it's so tricky getting guys and all these bands together to play live. And it's expensive, and it's hard to pull off and the list goes on. But if it could ever happen, I would love it. And yeah, maybe that's something that could happen more once the four years are behind us.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. Could you do something like a package either package tour of like N machine, Black Swan revolution saints or have all three play the same festival? Because I know that's a big thing. Festivals or Monsters of Rock cruise, those kinds of things.

Jeff Pilson:

Wow, you really want me to work hard, don't you?

Chuck Shute:

I'm just saying logistically, isn't that what you guys kind of have to do nowadays for

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, I mean, that would that that's the kind of thing I could see happening. Yeah. I honestly don't know. And, you know, anything is open and fine for me. But yeah, just it's just so hard to. It's hard to make it a reality. It just is.

Chuck Shute:

Okay. Well, I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about Docker and I'm sure there's a lot of Docker fans out there who want me to ask doc and questions. I'm trying to think of things that you haven't been asked about docking. What tell me explain to me how I'm not in a band. I'm not in the music business other than interviewing musicians, but in terms of like, if you're a founding member. How does that work? Because I know the whole thing with Motley Crue like Mick Mars is he's not he's been cut out or something. How does that work? Like with you and Doc, and you're not in the band currently? Do you still get a cut of obviously the music you've played on? But what about like merch or things like that? Is that

Jeff Pilson:

something that no, no, there was a severing of the partnership with E and Doc. And I want to say 2003. So, no, I mean, everything anything Don does as Doc and now that's him. But yeah, you know, we we, we guess

Chuck Shute:

you have to buy you out? I don't understand. There

Jeff Pilson:

was yeah, there was a thing to make it happen. Yes. Yeah. And

Chuck Shute:

it's interesting, like you guys had a lawsuit with George Lynch and then, but then you'd like you will got over it. And that's kind of interesting to me.

Jeff Pilson:

Because it's a lawsuit. Um, yeah, well,

Chuck Shute:

I think there's no grudges like, he just called you up one day. And it's like, Hey, buddy, let's go. Like you guys do not talk about that. Or do you just kind of just about it?

Jeff Pilson:

Sure. Of course, of course. But, I mean, basically, the lawsuit happened in 97 or eight, I want to say, and, you know, then he and I started working together in 2001. And that's a couple of years later, and when he called me up, it was kind of like, yeah, okay, we're over it. Seriously, it? You know, it. Just the crap of being in a band?

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. Well, it's funny because I used to be a counselor and schools. And, you know, that always helped me do the mediations. And if you bring, you know, two guys in, they can literally get in a fistfight. And I can talk to them, they work it out the next day. They're best friends again. Now, girls, a lot of times not to be sexist, but a lot of times girls will hold on to the grudge a lot longer. So that's how I kind of thought about that. When I heard that story of I was like, Oh, this is guys. This is what guys we just get overshot. So do you think Mick Mars and motley crew gonna ever? They'll probably kiss and make up in a few years?

Jeff Pilson:

I don't know the specifics of their deal. I mean, yeah, it sounds Yeah. I mean, I don't want to comment. Because I just don't know it. But I hope they do. You know, I mean, they're, they're good guys. You know, they should?

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, it's just, it's, it's hard to see that kind of stuff. As a fan. Everyone's taking sides. And it's like, I'm not taking a seat because I don't I don't know what's going on. I'd like to hear more. I'd like to have him on my show and, and figure it out. But it's hopefully it's one of those things that can blow over and a little bit

Jeff Pilson:

is I gotta admit, I've heard some snippets of Mars solo record, and it's Oh, yeah. Incredible. I hope to God, he puts it out because it's really, really strong. And by the way, Paul Taylor is working

Chuck Shute:

on it. So yeah, he told me about it to finish it off.

Jeff Pilson:

It is really, really good. I hope this inspires MC to release it because it's really good. And MIT deserves to be heard. He's got some really good music on there. Who else is on that?

Chuck Shute:

Who's the because I thought John corabi was singing at one point then he got replaced or?

Jeff Pilson:

I don't believe so. I think Jacob, I mean, what I heard Jacob was singing. I think the Oh Jacob button, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think Jacob was singing everything that I heard. Are you on it? No, no.

Chuck Shute:

Oh, you didn't produce it or anything? You just got to listen.

Jeff Pilson:

I Yeah. I mean, Paul, I'm

Chuck Shute:

surprised he did not ask you to do a song or something or back of vocals or something. Well,

Jeff Pilson:

I mean, that was done in Nashville. A lot of it was done in Nashville and and mix stuff was. Yeah, I mean, they don't they didn't need me.

Chuck Shute:

They had plenty. Where are you located?

Jeff Pilson:

I'm in LA, north of La a little bit.

Chuck Shute:

Okay. Yeah. Do you like that scene? Are you think you'll retire somewhere else at some point?

Jeff Pilson:

Well, it'd be hard to replace the studio because I got a beautiful studio and I got a beautiful drum room out there. And I got, you know, beautiful isolation room for lamps there. So that would be difficult to, to replace. So I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I love it here. I love where we are. I love our house. I love my studio. So I mean, I hope I can stay here a long time, but we'll see.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, it doesn't excite you to build a new one and upgrade it and,

Jeff Pilson:

um, yeah, if the opportunity arose. I mean, I'm kind of comfortable now. But

Chuck Shute:

yeah, no, it looks cool. Very cool. So yeah, with Dawkins, I mean, it's so interesting. I was looking back I was like, I didn't realize you guys. You've toured with almost every major band Aerosmith, ACDC, Metallica, Van Halen. And now of course, you're informed. I mean, is there any band that you have not toured with you? That's on your bucket list. That's like, I mean, unless it's like a band like Led Zeppelin. That's obviously not together anymore.

Jeff Pilson:

Oh, for her did play a gig with Led Zeppelin. When you were there, we played the ope. We played the at the Oh 702 arena show for the Ahmet Ertegun tribute we played right before his effort. You remember that big show that they had in 2007?

Chuck Shute:

No, it was that it wasn't under the one Zeplin date.

Jeff Pilson:

What you call it? DVD?

Chuck Shute:

Okay, was that on? Is that was that like page planned? Or was it actually it wasn't under the Led Zeppelin name?

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, it was called Led Zeppelin in 2007. Yeah. And it was it was John Paul Jones, Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, and Jason Bonham. So yeah, and they played as Led Zeppelin. It was a huge show. broke the internet because the 20 million requests for tickets for the 20,000 seats in the O two arena. It was it was crazy. But anyways, yeah, Forerunner played right before ziploan at that show, which was very cool.

Chuck Shute:

Well, there you go. That's amazing. God, geez, everything says Paul McCartney is the only one that you haven't worked with yet.

Jeff Pilson:

I've never worked with Paul McCartney, or Ringo. And I haven't worked with Ringo met Ringo. rocked out with Paul didn't actually meet him. But I thought it was. It's kind of funny. So it was at the oh seven Ahmet Ertegun show during Led Zeppelin set. And there was an area you know, for the VIPs up top. So after the show, my wife and I went to the area to the VIP area, and we're just kind of walking and, and, and the song rock'n'roll starts, right Zeplin rockin awesome. And so we're walking along, and my wife and I want to find there's this little area that we were you can kind of see in the VIP area. So we start walking along. And honestly, my wife was like doing this to me, I'm like, and I look over and it's Paul McCartney. And he's, he's walking alongside us, right? And we get to the area where everybody's standing. Although it was only a couple of people at this point. It was just Paul's wife and I standing in this area. And he's, he's rocking out totally like a fan. It's like, you can tell he's away from anybody seeing him. And he's like, you know, he's totally being a fan. And you know, my wife and I are looking at him. And we're kind of doing the same. And he's looking at us like, Yeah, and you know, I didn't say anything or anything, but I got the rock out with Paul serpil.

Chuck Shute:

Oh, that's awesome. Very cool. That's very cool. What is it like being on the other end of that? Because you've been on the other end of that, where people are starstruck to meet you and rock out with you and get pictures and all that kind of stuff.

Jeff Pilson:

What's it like to be on that end? I, you know, it's sort of a closure thing. You know, it's like, wow, I'm getting to meet my heroes. And hopefully I'll, I mean, honestly, it was a meeting with Chris Squire when I was 17 years old. I was one of those kids that followed him after the show, my best friend and I followed their limousine back to the hotel in Portland. And when he got out of the car, I went up and started talking to him. And he was so kind to me, and at 17 I was the most hyperactive kid you ever wanted. Mr. Squire? He was really cool. And he answered my questions. And he didn't ever give me the feeling like he wanted me to stop or be done. He was like, just very patient kind of thing. He smoked a big joint. He was very, very patient. He was like that until and I said, well, thank you very much. He goes, you're very welcome. Anytime. And he turns around, and what? That left such an impression on me that to this day, I will never be an asshole to anybody. Because, I mean, that meant everything. Had he been an asshole. What What would my reaction have been? How would I have changed my outlook on things? And in the years coming, so? So yeah, I'm very committed to being cool to anybody that wants to do this. Because my God, you deserve it.

Chuck Shute:

Wow, that's really inspiring. That's really neat to hear. Yeah. And I think you have that reputation of being a nice I've never heard anybody say anything bad about you.

Jeff Pilson:

Oh, well, maybe that's why Thank you, Chris. There we go. That's, that's good. I have to well, I've seen be a complete jerk and smartass since but, really, but But no, but it's because he's got a great sense of humor. Chris Squire is one funny was one funny to me.

Chuck Shute:

Wow. Yeah, that night. It's interesting when I started this podcast, and I've done over 300. And it's a lot of musicians. And most of them are very kind very down to earth. I mean, I don't see him obviously on tour and behind the scenes and stuff, but at least they're able to fake it with, with, you know, interviews with

Jeff Pilson:

more and more, that's getting to be the case, you know, a lot of the 80s bands, you know, of the dokkan genre when I'm kind of took ourselves way too seriously. And there was a lot of that, then, that I think, unfortunately has kind of backed off. People don't take quite as seriously. I mean, there's still a few people from that era that I see taking things a little too seriously still, but overall, people have mellowed out a lot. They've kind of seen things in perspective. And I think a lot of us are just really grateful that we're still playing music, and that's how I feel. I just I'm very grateful that that's what I get to do.

Chuck Shute:

That's interesting. You say, taking too seriously. I feel like that era was was more about fun and just not had taken too seriously. I mean, I don't Maybe the early 80s was little different than later. 80s

Jeff Pilson:

No, I mean, but what I mean by taking too seriously is the whole fame and fortune thing. You know, that's where a lot of the people in that area. Sure the songs were about fun and party and everything. But there was this underlying sense that we were all big rock stars, you know, that was that was a real goal. And I find that to be very empty and vacuous. So, and I think most people have since then, and yeah, the songs were about fun. But there was a lot of ego involved. And I think a lot of that is mellowed out. And that's good.

Chuck Shute:

Okay, yeah, no, that is good to hear. Yeah, cuz I mean, you look at guys like Alice Cooper. And it's just like, I mean, he doesn't have any of that he's been

Jeff Pilson:

cooled for a very, very long time. He's been sober a very long time, too. And Alice is just a wonderful, wonderful guy. And just, yeah, he is not an example of somebody in the 80s. That took themselves too seriously.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, well, what about the image? Because that was such a big thing back in the 80s, MTV, but it seems like the look is not as important now. I mean, if you look at people like, you know, Lizzo, who are have massive success, I mean, a person like Alyssa would not have, they wouldn't have let her be in the music business in the 80s. Do you think that that is a is changed dramatically?

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, when MTV came out, it was all you know, glitz and glamour. Of course, it's going to happen. It's television, you know. And, you know, there was music had its flirtation with that. But you know, I think it gets old, like anything. And I think people, people have become very specialized in their music to you know, it's like they they end a little niches, maybe it's their own niche of a playlist that can be combined from different genres, but, but people are getting very, very singular in their focus now. So I think that makes it in some ways more about the music, which is good. But unfortunately, the mainstream media music, the mainstream music infrastructure, shall we say, just doesn't seem to be set up for nurturing new artists yet, on the level it needs to be to really become mainstream. There's some of that going on. But there needs to be a lot more of it. And I hope there is, and I bet there will be soon.

Chuck Shute:

What do you mean, like, give me an example of how you would nurture a younger artist.

Jeff Pilson:

Because, first of all, to get signed to a label, you sort of have to sound like something or, you know, there's not really a criteria for signing something completely original, they won't take that kind of a chance. So that has to change the think about, you know, think about who signed? Well, yes, for instance, you know, when when Yes, got signed, you know, they went through a couple records, nobody bought anything, it was crazy. And then they started getting crazier with their music, but a label got behind it and support it. And I know a lot about that, because Phil Carson, our manager was the guy at Atlantic Records that made yes happen. And that was, like I say, they were taking a musical chance. People don't do that today. They need we need music, people, music visionaries, again, to sign artists that are really creative and new, give them a chance. And then give them the infrastructure of a major label for tour support, album distribution, and marketing. And that's what needs to happen. And I think somewhere along the line, somebody is going to get the idea. But more than likely, it'll happen. Because somebody's going to come out of the internet, with something very new and creative. It's going to catch on, and then the labels will chase it. And that's the problem they're chasing, rather than creating, if they can get if they can get into a zone where, hey, look that works. Let's start. Let's start us being creative. And let's start us looking for fresh, new, interesting talent. Maybe that can happen. And if that does happen, I think there's a much better shot for mainstream for mainstream music opening up into a much more creative field.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, cuz I mean, you bring up an interesting point how the labels are chasing? Because you're right. Like I think in some ways, you don't need a label. If you're really popular. You can anybody can upload to YouTube and Spotify. And it sounds really good. It's going to blow up. But you're saying that having that support would help bring more eyes on some things that are maybe a little bit different, that could blow up later.

Jeff Pilson:

Right, right, because you're still not hearing any rock songs on top 40 radio, you don't hear that at all anymore. And you used to use your L Han rock on mainstream radio. So I would love to see that change. But again, it's all about the music, the infrastructure, major labels, and they're a long ways off right now.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, no, I agree. It is weird how? That's what I liked about the 80s and 90s was especially like 91 Right, right was when grunge was starting to get popular but you know, hair metal was still cool. There was a mix, and I love that that was a great year rock You had like Metallica and Guns and Roses and Nirvana all having huge albums.

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, that was that was a great period. You're absolutely right. And of course, the next year 92 Is when Hair Metal just died. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Chuck Shute:

I still think it sucks because I a lot of those albums that came out there. In fact, I loved the doc and dysfunctional album, I might be the only one. But they played that song too high to fly in Seattle on Seattle rock radio in 95, which is kind of crazy. But I heard that song. And I was like, I gotta get this out. And the song is amazing.

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. That was that was the objective. And it did kind of work. Yeah, that was that was great. Well, I mean, listen, quality will last the test of time. And I think a lot of what dokkan did, there was a lot of quality and a lot of it. So it will stand the test of time, there was some pretty disposable music that came out of the hair metal scene. But you know, the great stuff has survived. And there's still some great rad stuff, some great warrant stuff, some great slaughter stuff, you know, there's there's still plenty of good stuff out there.

Chuck Shute:

Do you think the next phase of rock maybe incorporates an electronic component or something? Because I always thought like Nine Inch Nails, I thought that was going to be the future more than electronic, mixed with rock, but it hasn't really taken off like that.

Jeff Pilson:

Yeah, I mean, there's elements of me, you know, even in a band, like Evanescence, you kind of hear a little bit, but But you're right, more 15 years ago than what you'd hear now. So, yeah, I was a little surprised at that, too, because I thought the downward spiral was a huge record. I mean, now that that really made a difference. In my mind, I was a huge fan of that record. So I could, I kind of felt like you did? I don't know, maybe. But I think what people are starting to crave more and more is more organic things. So I see the next wave, I kind of hope as being a more raw and organic phase, kind of the opposite of this perfect Pro Tools phase that we're in. So I hope so. And maybe that's, you know, maybe if somebody comes up with just a raunchy, you know, new Rolling Stones, Guns and Roses kind of vibe that's loose, and cool. And not perfect. Maybe that would have a chat.

Chuck Shute:

I would love that. That's what I always think of, in fact, I've actually thought of just manages starting a band like not playing but just picking out musicians and getting my own guns and roses, like a modern day version. I think that somebody should do that. Hey,

Jeff Pilson:

yeah, I'd love to produce it. Would

Chuck Shute:

you is that something that you'd be interested in doing? After foreigners maybe kind of mentoring younger bands and producing and helping out

Jeff Pilson:

starting this minute? I'd love to do that. I would love to find a band that has a real vision. That would be wonderful.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, very cool. Well, you're involved in so many projects right now. Foreigners going to be on the road. The Revolution saints record is out tomorrow. We said Friday? Yes. We're 21 And then I think is there you just have a new record with a black swan. But and is there gonna be another end machine I think heard you say someone new singer without working on it. We're

Jeff Pilson:

working on a new machine record. Right now. It's almost all written in mostly tracked. It's got some tracking to go. But the end machine record I believe is going to come out early 24. I think I think that's what they want to do as what I've heard, but but that record is done. I'm going to start writing another Black Swan, which is Red Beach, Robin McAuley and Matt star is going to start writing that at the end of this year. But that too, probably won't come out till 25.

Chuck Shute:

So yeah. Okay, you're gonna be busy. So yeah,

Jeff Pilson:

we've got a there's another revolution saints record in the kingdom already. That'll come out next year. And then this summer, we're going to start writing another revolution saints record. And I've already got a couple of songs for that. So yeah, I got my projects mapped out.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, a lot of projects. Is there anything? Is there any projects that you were close to being a part of? Or like you tried out for that you didn't get that were like would have been huge?

Jeff Pilson:

Mmm hmm. Good question. That that can take them off hand.

Chuck Shute:

Okay. Well, there's always this future. I mean, if somebody if after foreigner ends, if some other big giant band comes calling, would you join another big band like that? Or do you think you want to just kind of late low and do more producing I would

Jeff Pilson:

have to see because I do want to be home more. So I don't you know, joining another band. That's kind of not on my mind at the moment, but we'll see. You never know.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. Okay. Very cool. Well let you get going. I was in promoting a charity or a nonprofit or cause just something like that that's near and dear to your heart.

Jeff Pilson:

Um, well, I will say if, if people are into meditation, I'm doing a virtual meditation class. It's generally Monday evenings at 8pm During 5pm Pacific, sometimes it has to change because of my touring schedule. But if you go to yoga at hot for yoga, S C v.com, you can get the information to how to how to do plenty of virtual classes, not just my meditation, there's other stuff you can get to. And if you get a monthly virtual pass, you can get all those classes. So it's a pretty cool deal. But if you want to join our meditation class, it's great. And it's a wonderful, wonderful way to really come down.

Chuck Shute:

Oh, I agree. I did a transcendental meditation. I've tried others progressive muscle relaxation. I feel like that's something that should be taught in schools. I used to work in schools. I'm like, why do we not teach meditation? I mean, it's not religious or whatever. It's anybody can do it, whether you're religious or not religious, like it's not a spiritual thing in that regard. So I don't know if there's scientific evidence that shows that it calms your body down.

Jeff Pilson:

There's a lot Yeah, and, and like I say, I credit that for me being able to survive the crazy music business that I've been able to survive. So yeah, it's a great thing. But But you asked for something I'd like to plug I love getting people to that. So that'd be great.

Chuck Shute:

Okay, I'll put that in the show notes along with me. Do you have? Do you have your own designer Jeff pilson website or?

Jeff Pilson:

There is? Yeah, there is a jeff.com

Chuck Shute:

I'll put that in the show notes too. And that's, I mean, where people go on your Wikipedia and just see the massive list of all the music you've made. It's awesome. Very cool.

Jeff Pilson:

Let me visit my Jeff pilson. fanpage on

Chuck Shute:

on Facebook. Yeah. And you're on I think you're on Instagram and Twitter too. I think I follow you on the real Jeff pilson Instagram. All right. Thanks so much, Jeff. Appreciate it.

Jeff Pilson:

Great interview, man. Appreciate it.

Chuck Shute:

All right. Have a good one. You too. Well, there you go. Jeff pilson, you heard him shout out his social media. So make sure to follow him on there like comment, share his stuff. And of course you can do the same with the shows, the shows social media and YouTube it definitely helps myself and the guest out and make sure to check out Jeff's latest project revolution saints. The third album should be out soon and the fourth one is coming. So I appreciate all your support for the show and the guests as always, have a great day and shoot for the moon.