Chuck Shute Podcast

Rebecca Zung (attorney, author, YouTuber)

December 05, 2022 Rebecca Zung Season 4 Episode 304
Chuck Shute Podcast
Rebecca Zung (attorney, author, YouTuber)
Show Notes Transcript

Rebecca Zung is an attorney, author and YouTuber. She was recognized by U.S. News & World Report as a “Best Lawyer in America” and her YouTube channel has over 30 million views. In this episode we discuss Rebecca’s backstory and her YouTube channel which focuses on understanding and dealing with narcissists.

00:00 - Intro
00:40 - Rebecca's Story
03:10 - Rebecca's Work Ethic
04:10 - Being Bullied & Narcissist Relationship
05:56 - Learning About Narcissists
08:55 - Narcissist Defintion
12:54 - Narcissist Types
19:12 - Phases of Narcissists
32:50 - Strategy in Negotiating with a Narcissist
34:50 - SLAY  Legal Aid
36:29 - Outro

Rebecca Zung website:
https://www.rebeccazung.com/

SLAY Legal Aid website:
https://www.slaylegalaid.org/

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com/

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Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!

Chuck Shute:

All right. Today, my guest is Rebecca Zang. She is recognized as one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation and is also the author of two books with a third on the way. And she has a very popular YouTube channel that is mainly focused on understanding and dealing with narcissists. And it's a fascinating topic to me and you might think you know what a narcissist is. But I think you're gonna be very surprised to learn what a true narcissist is. We're gonna talk all about it very interesting stuff coming right up please welcome Rebecca Zang to my show, how are you doing today?

Rebecca Zung:

I'm doing great. So nice to meet you.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, nice to meet you. I'm really enjoying your content and your books, your YouTube channel. It's all great stuff. So if you could real quick, though, can you tell my audience just a little bit about your background? Because I find your, your path. So interesting how you were, you know, bullied as a kid and then married young divorce law school financial advisor back to attorney. I mean, the whole story is kind of interesting.

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I got married at 19 the first time and I had three kids by the time I was 22. And then, so as a single mom divorced, and I was a teacher actually, for a little while. And then I went back to law school at night. And I married I actually met my husband in law school. And then I, you know, became an attorney, and kind of came up through the ranks that way. And then I did become a financial advisor for a little while, because I had a fourth child with my husband. And I was like, trying to, you know, juggle all of that. And maybe it would be easier, but you know, really wasn't. But you know, so I was just financial advisor just for a couple of years. And then I went back to being an attorney, and built one of the top family law practices in Florida. And I left that just a couple years ago, because I was really more of an entrepreneur at heart. So I ended up in a relationship with a person who ended up to be a narcissist. And just during COVID, started making videos on YouTube, about how to negotiate with a narcissist, and within two years, I now have 30 million views on YouTube. And I sell programs on how to negotiate with narcissists. And I've sold, I don't know, probably 10,000 of them to people all over the world. And I now have a book coming out next year called slay the bully. How to Negotiate with a narcissist. And when, and my life has exploded my my whole my whole life is very, very different in two years. Wow, that's

Chuck Shute:

crazy. Yeah, I think what's interesting too about it, just your work ethic seems so amazing to me. Because I think you said in your in your one of your books that at one point you were when you were going through law school, you were working until 10pm, and then studying till 2am and waking up at 6am Did I hear that? Right? So you only got four hours asleep at night?

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah. Well, you know, I was still in my 20s. So I definitely couldn't do that now. Still, though. Yeah. So crazy. I you know, I had three little kids, and it was just a crazy time in my life, that's for sure. You know, I always joke that I'm half Chinese and half German, so that means I have no fun jeans whatsoever. Quiz is definitely true. You know, my dad was from China. My mom's German. So I just like, I think that is that's why I don't know. I don't know. But that's, you know, that just and I was bullied as a kid for being Chinese. So I you know, and I and, and that, uh, you know, when I when I was going through this relationship with a covert narcissist, with his business partner, it brought back all of those trauma, the all the all of the feelings of being bullied all of that trauma. And then I thought that I had put aside, you know, because I thought I was whole I thought it was complete. I had a very fulfilling life. I had one of the top law practices, tons of friends like, you know, great, everything was good in my life. But then when I went through the these, you know, I had really two narcissists in my life one was in a family situation Turn, and then one in this business partner situation that caused me so much trauma that literally, I was back into therapy and I, you know, really anxiety, it caused me a tremendous amount of anxiety that, you know, paranoia, all kinds of feelings that I thought I had long put to rest. And so I really understood what people are dealing with when they're dealing with narcissists. And that's why I'm on such a mission with this. That's why I have such a deep sense of feeling like I have a calling about this, this mission.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, no, I mean, like you said, millions of views on YouTube. How did you learn all these terms? And what a narcissist is like, how did you learn about it? Because you're, obviously you're a lawyer, you don't have a degree in psychology or anything like that. But when did you just read books or YouTube videos or

Rebecca Zung:

a dozens and dozens I mean, and that's one of the things that I feel so passionately about, because I practiced law for 17 years and 18 years before I started learning all of this and, you know, nearly 20 years and was at the top of my game. I mean, I had been presenting as a keynote for the American Bar Association, I had been recognized by US News as one of the best lawyers in america for like seven years in a row. I mean, lots and lots of really amazing accolades. And I did not know what a narcissist was. I can tell you that I thought it was I thought a narcissist was only a male. I thought a narcissist was a person who was a bragging, boastful person who was going around telling everybody how great they were kind of a misogynistic person who would go into restaurants demand the best tables. But, you know, that was my understanding of what a narcissist was. And, you know, I was a lawyer, and you know, so a lot of people have a deep misconceptions. And it wasn't until I went through this situation with a covert narcissist that somebody had actually said to me, a psychologist friend said, Oh, she's a covert narcissist. And I was like, Well, what, what is that? So it caused me to read dozens and dozens of books, and talk to psychologists and talk to psychiatrists, and really spend many, many hours learning about this. And it was only then that I thought, oh, I can actually apply this to what I already know about negotiation. And I, at the time, I was still practicing law, which I'm not actively anymore. I'm still a partner at a firm, but I don't have time to practice anymore. But I, I thought, oh, I can apply this to my cases. And I actually started to see movement in the narcissist that I was dealing with, in my cases, like, it was like, I had discovered penicillin. Seriously, yeah. And I thought, Okay, this is working, this is working. And I thought I have to share this with the world. Like, this is something I must share with the world.

Chuck Shute:

Exactly. So you were saying, you know, you didn't know what a narcissist was. And it's interesting, because I got a master's in psychology and I took classes, and we learned about personality disorders, but I don't think I really knew what it was either. So can you explain to our audience how you define a narcissist and how it's different than someone who's just confident or somebody who takes a lot of selfies because that's typically not always a narcissist?

Rebecca Zung:

Oh, that is definitely not a narcissist. I mean, that and that's something that I want people to know is because you have to be confident in yourself you I mean, that obviously you want to be confident in yourself and you want to feel whole and you want to feel complete, that's something that we all need to strive for. Right there's a healthy sense there. What a narcissist is and I like to define it in terms of that people can actually understand and you know, layperson terms, and it is a spectrum by the way, but what a narcissist says you have to picture a person who feels totally empty inside now, I say feels because all human beings inherently have value. But this is a person who feels totally and completely empty inside. This is a person who feels like they, they need air oxygen, like they're totally starving, like there's a black hole inside of them. So they have to get all of their value from external sources all the time. And this, this black hole inside of them cannot be filled, ever. And so, you know, they are totally starving, desperate gasping for breath desperate for air all the time. And they want you to fill this and you might want to fill it too. And so you are trying trying to fill this hole for them. So you're left totally, completely depleted, they're still starving. And it's this horrible cycle. And, and so it's scarcity mode to the utmost extreme. And, and it cannot be fixed, it cannot be fixed. And that's why they cannot have any empathy for anybody else. Because they're just in this scarcity mode, their survival mode constantly. And that's why they don't have empathy for anybody else. And that's why they, they, they they're in this desperation mode constantly. And that's really what a narcissist is, but it cannot be fixed. And yes, you can have compassion for this person. But it cannot be fixed or cannot be healed. I've spoken to many, many, many psychologists and psychiatrists, and true narcissistic personality disorder is a person who really cannot be fixed or healed. Because they don't have the self awareness because they're not going to go in there, then I can, you know, that the way somebody has to be the way of being is somebody has to be open to it, they have to have self awareness, they have to want to be healed. a narcissist truly doesn't want that. And they have this true self and false self, they have these two different personas, there's this scared little person inside. And then you know, that's the true self. And then the false self is the one that they show the world. And it's, you know, it's a it's a dichotomy that they have going on constantly. And it's, you know, it's, it's a very, very sad situation for them. But that is what going on.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. So then you talked about covert, there's three different types of narcissists. The way I understand it covert, malignant, and grandiose. Can you explain the differences between those three?

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah, I mean, I think those are the three that you hear the most about, I think that there's a lot more types, but those are the three that you hear the most about. And, you know, the malignant is really has an overlay of like being a sociopath, and basically has, I call it like the Darth Vader type, they, they just have no problem completely ruining somebody's life. And, you know, when when I was practicing divorce law, this was the type that had absolutely no problem. Filing something to accuse a person of being a child molester, even if they never touched a child, trying to ruin somebody's life, saying that they were a wife beater, or a whatever, you know, they would lose their job. ruin their reputation. They didn't care. You know, this is a person who would stalk a person you know, they have no conscience whatsoever about another person. That's a malignant narcissist. Just know. They're just a sociopath, basically, as well as being a narcissist. So that's a malignant narcissist. A covert narcissist. Well, I say a grandiose narcissist is what I call a garden variety narcissist. That's the one that you think of as being kind of the big mouth. You know, the one that's the one that I thought of as the narcissists, right that's the one that is the, you know, goes around telling everybody how great they are. You know, the one You think of when you think of a narcissist, right?

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, the braggadocious person, well, celebrities are kind of like that. And

Rebecca Zung:

right, you know, I'm, I'm wonderful, I'm great. Look at all the things that I've done, you know. But you know, you gotta remember that all narcissist. Think of also, they don't have empathy. They don't have empathy. So it's not just that they tell people how great they are, it's also that they don't have empathy. And by the way, it's okay to share your wins. It's okay to share your wins. And it's okay to say, I've accomplished these things if you've accomplished good things, right? I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, I mean,

Chuck Shute:

I think the difference is, is that they will often put down other people and say that they're better than them. And also I take it a step further, would you say with the empathy not only do they not have empathy, but they almost like kind of get off on like, hurting people like it gives them like obsession.

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah, but that's a whole different that's a whole different thing. You know, and I can get to that in a second. The covert narcissist is actually the stealthiest. I think they're the smartest of all the narcissist and a lot of ways, the stealthiest the most dangerous type in a lot of ways. Because this is the type of narcissist that looks kind on the surface that looks normal on the surface, that everybody thinks they're wonderful. Everybody else thinks that they're amazing. They look like they're humanitarians. Many times they look like they are good people. They could be sometimes they could be clergy, you know, they could be you know, lawyers, doctors, they could be, you know, all kinds of good people. But underneath the surface, they are 100% narcissist. And, you know, so these are maybe the people that are the first people to show up at the hospital if somebody is sick, but they're doing it because it's a photo opportunity or, you know, the right people are seeing it or, you know, because because they're opportunists, in some ways, or because maybe they're trying to manipulate a situation, you know, but they're underneath the radar doing these things. They're low key, very competitive, they're passive aggressive. The kinds of things that they do are death by 1000 cuts they are there, there's always plausible deniability with the kinds of things that they do. Oh, I didn't, I didn't mean to do that. Oh, I'm sorry. You know, like they forget to do certain things on purpose.

Chuck Shute:

You what have you and if you tell people about what they're doing, like you kind of sound like the crazy one because it makes it sound like you said, like death by 1000 cuts like the things are doing are so small, but like, you know what they're doing and they know what they're doing. But if you try to explain to someone else, you're gonna sound crazy.

Rebecca Zung:

Exactly, exactly. It's the worst kind, though, because everybody else goes well, that doesn't sound so bad. Or oh, I'm sure that was in it for and you know, because there's so nice, you know, and so it's just it makes you go crazy. Just a little bit out of time a little bit at a time. And so the covert narcissist they think are the worst ones. The absolute worst ones.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. And so then what is the like the the phases that they go through? So it starts off with what they call love bombing? And then it's devaluation then discarding and then hoovering. Can you explain those things to us?

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah. So you start off with and this is it, whether it's a business relationship, or a or you in a romantic relationship, it doesn't really matter the type of relationship but you know, it's all the same. So they start off by making you feel like you are the most amazing, incredible human being they've ever met. And by the way, they're chameleons. They read you. I always say it's sort of like Malcolm Gladwell, those outliers, they you know how how Malcolm Gladwell said that, you know, took 10,000 hours to achieve mastery to read the I mean to do anything. So narcissists have been reading people since they were children, right? So they are masters at reading people, they achieved 10,000 hours like, years and years ago, right? So they are so good at reading people, because it's a survival skill for them. So they, they, they know immediately how to become exactly the perfect person for you. They are incredibly charming, incredibly charismatic, incredibly amazing. So as soon as they show up in your world, you think, wow, where has this person been all of my life, and you're so intoxicated. By them. It's your so it's like this head trip of amazing, you know, wow. And so the stars have aligned, and they make you feel like you are the most incredible human being they have ever met on the planet ever. They sweep you off your feet. And so it's this rocketship of, of amazing situation will. And again, this is business or personal. And so you're swept up into this situation. And they want to get you into the next level as soon as possible, as soon as possible. So right away, they're talking about, let's move in together, let's meet your family. Let's, you know, if you've got kids, we want to meet your kids. Let's get married, let's you know if it's a business relationship, let's sign contracts, let's be partners, let's, you know, whatever it is, let's get to that next level as soon as possible. Because there, they don't want to have to be working this hard for very long, because they're just they're conditioning you to get to that next level as soon as possible. And then, as soon as they get to that next level, then it changes almost immediately. Then, you know, the 50 emails or 50,000 texts a day become none. And then you're going okay, where are you now all of a sudden, you're so needy. And, you know, anything you ask them they're not doing. And, you know, they become passive aggressive. And, you know, stories aren't lining up. And, you know, you're wondering what in the heck is going on, you see all these red flags, and you know it, now you're just all of a sudden, it's this toxic stew of back and forth and back and forth. But now you're in it, and you're locked in, in all these different ways and you're trying to figure out what to do. And so, you you know, but then they kind of future fake you. Right? Well, it's gonna get better and you know, you'll see and all it's going to be amazing and, you know, they know how to keep you in it back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And so that's you know, the devaluing and then the discard is either you or them. So you know, the narcissistic supply it's really important that I go into the narcissistic supply piece of this because what I have figured out is there's two different types of narcissistic supply, which is what I call Grade A diamond level narcissistic supply. And then there's the what I call coal level supply. And the grade A diamond level narcissistic supply is adulation prestigious friends. The impressive jobs or lots of money, you know, that sort of thing that the anything that feeds their ego from the external, like impress everybody else sort of thing, the things you can see the things that you would expect would narcissists would want, right? Then there's what I call the dark underbelly of narcissistic supply, which also feeds their ego, which they also love, which they are also addicted to. But it's sort of like us a slight notch below. And that is the devaluing the manipulating you, the controlling you, the, you know, all of those other things that we were talking about, they also feed their ego with that. However, and this is when I get to the negotiation piece. If push comes to shove, when it comes to negotiating with narcissists, great a diamond level supply will always win out over the coal level supply, they will always let go of the coal level supply in order to protect the grade A diamond level supply, they they they will not want to expose be exposed to their grade A diamond level supply the people that they respect the people that they don't want to look bad to the you know that they especially top shelf people, you know, if they think that their core level supply people might, you know, be exposing them to the better form of supply, they will let go of that coal level supply. And that's how you build leverage when you are negotiating with narcissists. That's the only way that you can and there's hundreds and hundreds of ways that you can build leverage that way. But that's how you do it with Narcissus.

Chuck Shute:

And then so then they do that. But they also like the discard phase where they kind of get rid of you. But then they come back. And that's the hoovering thing. Is that how it works?

Rebecca Zung:

Well, because what happens is, either they're either discarding you or you're discarding them. Right? So they'll discard you, if they think that there's no more supply left to be had from from you. Or there's better supply down the road. Right? Or they think that you're going to discard them. You know, they'll they'll they'll discard you first. All right, so with a narcissist, you're either for them or against them. There's no There's no gray for them. So it's either you're for them or against them. And if you're against them, then you're public enemy number one. So if they think that you're going to discard them, then they'll get they'll get rid of you first. Okay? Or they will. Or, or if they find a better source of supply, they'll they'll discard you, if there's nothing left to be had. Because you're just with with narcissists, you're not a person, you're a possession, you're a form of supply. That's really it, because they don't, they don't have the ability to have that empathy. They don't have the ability to see people for being people. I mean, that's just how they think. They think in terms of transactions. I mean, everything is transactional for them. And so, you know, are you a good source of supply? Are you not? And if you're not then what are you doing here? You know, so, if you are going to continue to be a good source of supply then I still need you around almost like jars of jam or something on a cupboard like do I Is there still some good supply left here, you know, for the winter, you know, and so with the hoovering piece the reason why they'll come back is because let me see if there's something to be had here. Let me see if there's you know, it's almost like a vulture coming back to a carcass. Let me see if there's some meat left on these bones. You know, let me let me see See if I can come back and get something here. So you know, that's when you'll, you'll see a little DM pop up in your Instagram or something, hey, how you do when you know what's going on?

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. And then one is the smear campaign and the flying monkey thing is that during the devaluing phase or the discard,

Rebecca Zung:

the birth of the smear campaign starts during the discard, okay, but, you know, with, with, with, a lot of times that discard phase starts before you even realize that it's happening, especially with coverts, they'll start planting those seeds long before you even know that discard phase has started, you know, what they'll start doing is they'll start saying things to people with like, a little bit of a sneer long before you even realize that they're starting. You know, they're very, very, very good at it. You know, so they'll start to say things to people like, oh, you know, Jim, he just had a little too much to drink last night. I am so concerned. So concerned about him. We're just worried. That's all, you know, I just, I just want to make sure that he's okay. That's all I'm just really just want to make sure he's okay. You know, because I just worry about him. And then, you know, six months later, it's, well, you know, Jim's an alcoholic. You know, I've been worried about, you know, I've been worried about him for so long. And, you know, Jim shouldn't be around the kids. Um, you know, I've been saying this for months, you know, and then it's like, then you get the neighbors to testify against Jim. Because, well, she's been saying this for so long. Because and, you know, Jim may be fine with alcohol. Jim may like, have like, a glass of wine every two weeks. But you know, she's been saying this for months. So she plants it in everybody's head that Jim's an alcoholic. Right. But that's what they do. Yeah, so and they put it in terms of just care. Yeah.

Chuck Shute:

Especially once you have a saying like the COVID. They're more sneaky about that kind of state.

Rebecca Zung:

So then what? I just care about him. Yeah.

Chuck Shute:

So I know you have an I gotta get going here. But real quick, and then you have a lot more research sources on your website and or your YouTube channel has tons of videos, but just real quick, what are some things that people can do? Like there's a couple of techniques? I know, the gray rock is where you kind of just kind of slowly distance yourself and then the No Contact is where you just completely cut contact? Right?

Rebecca Zung:

Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, i my i just i briefly did mention my sleigh methodology, but strategy, leverage, anticipate and focus on you, which is what I was kind of referencing a little bit, but that is my slay methodology. And that is what I definitely recommend people use when they are trying to negotiate with a narcissist. And I do have a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet that people can download, which is at crush my deal.com. It's a free ebook that people can grab, which I highly recommend that people grab, because if you're getting ready to negotiate with a narcissist, or you're in the process of negotiating with a narcissist, it's a very substantive, great resource that people have won their entire negotiations just on that. So for sure, grab that. And, you know, my YouTube channel has I upload brand new videos there every single day. So yeah,

Chuck Shute:

it's like you've almost answered every question that I can have. Narcissism mean, it's fun to just go down the rabbit hole and just watch all these videos. It's really fascinating. Because I think it's kind of a there's a lot of people that are narcissists in our society, right?

Rebecca Zung:

I was like, 15% of the population, and not many Really, wow. 15% And then if each one of those people emotionally abuses just three people in their lifetimes, then you know, that ends up to be 158 million Americans and 3.4 billion people on the planet, so it's quite a lot.

Chuck Shute:

Wow, scary stuff. Well, I always end each episode promoting a nonprofit or a charity is there one that you want to give a shout out to here I can put that in the show notes along with your website.

Rebecca Zung:

Oh, yeah, I would love to just mention that slate legal aid.org is a new foundation that a founded with Lindsay Snyder Ellingson, she and I She owns in and out. Oh, wow. And yes. And she and I. Yeah. So Lindsay and I founded a brand new foundation together, which is helping people with legal aid. And you know, whether it's, you know, legal aid for, you know, divorce or for human trafficking, or veterans or all different sorts of anybody who is in need of legal aid. And we're also looking for donations as well. But Lindsey and I founded that recently, and we're super proud of that. So that's amazing.org.

Chuck Shute:

Yes, that's great. Because yeah, I think I've done like over 300 episodes of this, and I've promoted tons of charities, I don't think I have any that provide free legal aid. So that's great. And then people can donate that. And also check out all the YouTube stuff is free so that they could donate to your charity that would help out I think it'd be be a good deal for them. So thank you so much for doing this. Rebecca, anything else you want to promote?

Rebecca Zung:

Oh, just my Instagram, which is at Rebecca dung. Yes. Thank you. And my Tiktok is the same. Okay, cool. Thank you. Fine, and it's really nice to meet you.

Chuck Shute:

Yes. Nice to meet you, too. Thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day. Yeah. Well, again, it's a fast. It's fascinating stuff from Rebecca Zang. I wish we had more time. Hopefully we're gonna have her back on the show soon, maybe when her new book comes out. My thanks again to her and her team for setting this up. Check out her website in the show notes. It has all the links to our social media and YouTube channel which has a ton of information and answers to all your questions about narcissists. If you want to support her or the show your likes, comments and shares always help. And of course, make sure you subscribe to both our channels if you haven't already. Thanks for listening. Have a great day and shoot for the moon.