Chuck Shute Podcast

Melissa Urban (The Whole 30, The Book of Boundaries)

September 21, 2022 Melissa Urban Season 4 Episode 280
Chuck Shute Podcast
Melissa Urban (The Whole 30, The Book of Boundaries)
Show Notes Transcript

Melissa Urban is the Co-Founder & CEO of the Whole 30 and a New York Times best-selling author.  Her latest book, “The Book of Boundaries” shows you how boundaries are the key to better mental health, increased energy, improved productivity, and more fulfilling relationships.  We discuss the book in depth in this episode including signals for setting boundaries, setting boundaries in different settings, food & drink boundaries, being clear and kind and more!

0:00:00 - Intro
0:00:54 - New Book "Book of Boundaries"
0:03:45 - How Melissa Became "The Boundary Lady"
0:04:41 - Apologizing & Guilt for Boundaries
0:07:10 - Respecting Boundaries & Expanding Life
0:09:07 - Signals for Needing to Set a Boundary
0:11:40 - Self Boundaries & Understanding Yourself
0:15:03 - Starting with Whole 30 or Boundaries?
0:16:40 - Simplicity of Setting Boundaries
0:18:15 - Communication & "Clear & Kind"
0:20:03 - Boundaries & Dating
0:22:55 - Boundaries & Flexibility
0:24:22 - Holding Boundaries
0:26:05 - Threat Levels for Boundaries
0:28:54 - Work Based Boundaries & Quiet Quitting
0:34:06 - Setting Boundaries with Family
0:35:55 - Boundaries with Pets?
0:36:43 - Emotional Vampires & Narcissists
0:38:34 - Soap Opera Star, Controller & Victim
0:39:30 - Friend Break-Ups
0:41:40 - You Can Do It Anyway You Want
0:44:16 - Co-Parenting Boundaries
0:46:23 - Food & Drink Boundaries
0:51:23 - Sensitive Subjects
0:52:50 - Setting Boundaries with Yourself
0:54:22 - People Not Liking Boundaries
0:56:45 - Hardest Boundaries
0:58:16 - Extreme Boundaries
1:00:30 - Utah Food Bank
1:01:17 - Outro

Melissa Urban website:
https://www.melissau.com/

Utah Food Bank website:
https://www.utahfoodbank.org/

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com/

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Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!

Chuck Shute:

A very exciting guest today she is the co author of the whole 30 books and the CEO of the whole 30 brand, her book and brand, revolutionize the way that people eat and change millions of lives. The whole 30 branding, it's all over the grocery store. And it helps people to continue to make healthy food choices even after they've done a whole 30 program. It's helped me a lot personally, and I'm a big fan of that book. Now she's back with another book that's going to revolutionize things and change millions of lives. The book of boundaries. This is all about healthy boundaries, romantic relationships, friends, family work, and even ourselves. Lots of great wisdom and knowledge from Melissa urban. She is a guest today. Coming right up thank you so much for doing this big fan. Love the whole 30 I think it changed my life and millions of others. And now, dare I say this new book is going to change even more lives.

Melissa Urban:

I hope so from your ears to God's or your mouth to God's ears. Yes, I hope so.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, so it's it's about boundaries. It's called the book is the book of boundaries and the title. Yeah, the book a very simple title. But yeah, explain to people what this is about. I love it. Yeah. So

Melissa Urban:

you know, boundaries are healthy limits that we set around how other people are allowed to engage with us. And they're designed to help us preserve our time and our energy, our mental health, our finances, our physical space. But boundaries are really scary for people, they're uncomfortable. And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about boundaries that there's somehow selfish or mean or controlling. And I think people struggle with how to say them. They're like, Okay, I like the idea of boundaries. I like the idea of healthy limits and improving my relationships. But how do I say that? So the entire book is really just a practical guide on how to apply apply boundaries to all of your relationships to immediately bring freedom and capacity and energy and improve mental health? Yeah.

Charles Shute:

Would you say that setting boundaries is similar to setting standards, like there's just certain things that you're just not going to tolerate anymore?

Melissa Urban:

In a way, yes. But boundaries are flexible, and they are really context dependent. So you may have boundaries that are standards across all of your relationships, no matter what, I'm a recovering addict. My boundary is I don't hang out with people who are doing drugs, hard, stop, don't care who you are, you could be the whatever, I don't hang out. That's my boundary. But I have boundaries with one set of parents that are different than with another because of the way they choose to show up in my life, I have certain boundaries with friends that I don't have to have with my sister. So in that way, boundaries are really context dependent on the relationship and are designed to make you feel safe and healthy in that relationship and make that particular relationship better.

Unknown:

Yeah,

Chuck Shute:

so it's, they're very flexible, and they're flexible within the person. Because for some people, like they may want to hang out with drug addicts, and that may be okay for them. And for other people, it isn't. So it's different for every that's why you can't set a specific boundary in the book and say, This is what it should be.

Melissa Urban:

Yes, you know, some people love it when their mother in law just walks right in the door without calling or without knocking, because their mother in law is so helpful and good with the kids and will immediately walk in and go Oh, I see your dishes need to be down and start going. Other people don't like it when their mother in law shows up without calling. It feels disruptive to the family. It feels imposing it doesn't make them feel good. So they want to impose a boundary that says, hey, please call before coming over. Both of those are equally fine. You just have to figure out what works for you.

Charles Shute:

Yeah. And so how did you become the boundary? Lady? You talked about that? Like because this is the casual observer you do, you do appear very assertive and independent, self confident and comfortable with conflict. So a lot of people reached out to you asking for advice on this. Isn't that why you wrote the book in the first place?

Melissa Urban:

It is you know, I've been doing whole 30 since 2009. I co founded the program 13 years ago and whole 30 is a 30 day elimination program. So you give up the foods for 30 days you reintroduce them and compare your experience to determine food sensitivities. So you say no a lot on the whole 30 You say no to the break room doughnuts and the birthday party pizza and the drink at happy hour and people found it really hard to say no. So I would help them say no on the whole 30 and once they realized I was really good at helping them find the language to say no to that. They started asking me about the pushy and laws and the toxic co worker and the nosy neighbor and I started to naturally expand my boundary conversations and to other relationships.

Charles Shute:

Yeah, and you say with apologies, because I think that was something that was funny. It reminds me of like I dated this girl and she's She once told me she goes you say sorry too much. Do we say sorry for trying to set boundaries, but we shouldn't apologize for just expressing our own feelings and if we're direct and polite,

Melissa Urban:

yes, you know, I think we've been conditioned Especially women to believe that having needs and certainly expressing those needs and maybe even putting our needs ahead of others or in conjunction with others is somehow selfish and should make us feel guilty. So we express our needs and say, Oh, I'm so sorry for having needs. But we don't have to do that, you know, our needs are worthy or needs are valid. And because the boundaries are coming from the self, they're based on my needs, and what I will do to keep myself safe and healthy. And I'm simply expressing this limit to you. And because they're designed to improve our relationship, they're an invitation to say, hey, here's the healthy limit that you may not have realized I have, I'm inviting you to meet me in that limit. And if you can, our relationship is going to be so much freer, more trusting, more open, more vulnerable, we'll enjoy our time together more, then there's nothing to feel guilty or bad about. And there's certainly nothing to apologize for.

Chuck Shute:

Do you think it's okay to if people make mistakes when they're when they're implementing these techniques of setting boundaries? And they maybe they are too rude or they're not polite when they do it? Yeah, just part of the process.

Melissa Urban:

It can be part of the process, I tend to see that happen a lot with people who have been denying their needs for a very long time. They have been swallowing their feelings, letting things slide, always saying yes, even when they don't want to. And then at some point, they just explode. Because they've been holding on to these needs and these feelings for such a long time. Absolutely. You can have grace for that. And the sort of antidote to that is to say, No, and set these boundaries, even in small areas of your life. Because all of those small resentments and anxieties and dreads, all of that really adds up. So yes, I think that that it always is a practice, I think you won't always get it right. I don't always get it right. But that's why they call it a practice. And that the more you set and hold boundaries, and you practice this language, the more comfortable you become.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. And so And ideally, it's going to help you release that anxiety, the self doubt the resentment you talk about, and have deeper relationships. Now, if you do get too much negative blowback, I mean, that could be assigned to that. Maybe this isn't the right relationship if they don't respect your boundaries, right?

Melissa Urban:

Absolutely. So you know, when I was in recovery, I had to say to friends, you can't use drugs around me, you can't bring them into my house. And if I'm at a party, and you guys decide that you want to start smoking pot, cool, absolutely do your thing. I'm just going to see myself out the door. And I found that I had some friends who were unwilling or incapable of respecting that limit for me. And I had to let those friends go, or I had to dramatically adjust our relationship. And I think that is an it's maybe unfortunate, but at the same time, if people aren't able to take the bare minimum steps necessary to keep you safe and healthy, then I think it's very important for you to set a limit around how involved they should be in your life. Yeah.

Chuck Shute:

Right, because you start talking about how the boundaries actually expanded your life and didn't shrink

Melissa Urban:

it. Yes. I was afraid that telling people how I felt saying things like, please don't use drugs around me, please don't bring drugs into my house, please don't invite me to places with people that you don't know, or where there may be using. I thought that that was going to make my circle so small, and that I would feel so isolated. And that people would reject me because I was putting too many parameters on our engagement. And what happened was, the friends who were good friends said, okay, cool. And so guess what happened, they just didn't invite me to those places. And they invited me to other places, I stopped going to parties with them. But we started going to like a yoga class or going for a hike or going out for dinner, just the two of us. And it really did expand our relationship, I now felt like I could trust them. I could be open with them, we were able to be more vulnerable with each other. I didn't worry when I got into the car with them who would be in the backseat or where we would be going there was no dread. There was no anxiety. And it really did bring this enormous amount of freedom to my relationships.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah. So what is this talking about identifying the signal that you need a boundary? Because I thought that was a really good point in the book that because I think sometimes you don't even realize that there'd be phone calls that people friends that would call me and I love these people. They're great people, but they call me and I'd see that they are calling and I just get anxiety. I'm like, Oh, I don't want I don't want to talk to this person. But yeah, that's not saying they're a bad person is saying that I need to set a boundary, maybe it's a 15 minute call instead of an hour long call or those kinds of things, right?

Melissa Urban:

Yes. I mean, you're saying it better just as well as I could. Absolutely. So I think we generally sometimes think about people, conversations relationships, time of day and we have this like generally icky feeling like oh, I don't feel good about that. That is the prime sign that a boundary is needed. Any sense of anxiety, Dread avoidance of a person a conversation topic, a place a time of day, if you get the Sunday scaries every single night and you're like it ruins your Sunday, because you're so stressed about your Monday, that's a sign that a boundary is needed. If you feel like you can't show up as your fullest self, if you feel like you have to hide pieces of yourself, or show up in a way that is appropriate or approved by that person, that's a sign a boundary is needed. If you find you leave the engagement, and you're running through in your head, all of the things, why didn't I say this, I should have said that. I can't believe I let that slide. That's a sign of boundaries needed. And if you don't really know where you stand with a person, if that relationship just feels very tumultuous, that could also be assigned

Charles Shute:

Sunday night skerries. I liked that. I thought that was only something that I experienced. But that's a very common thing.

Melissa Urban:

Universal, so many people get the Sunday scaries where the entirety or like the last half of their Sunday, is completely ruined, because they are so stressed out about what is on their plate for Monday morning. Yes, and that's a prime sign that a boundary, maybe a boundary with coworkers, maybe a boundary with your boss, maybe a boundary with your spouse and your kids around what your Monday mornings look like maybe a boundary with yourself about what you are doing on Monday mornings that could make your Monday feel so much smoother and less stressful. But it's that scary feeling that's like the red flag that a boundary could help.

Charles Shute:

Yeah, that's that's interesting. Like, huh, okay, yeah, cuz that's, that is definitely and that's what I love how you break this up into different categories with, you know, the work, and the friends and the parents. And also, like you said, the boundary with yourself, I think that's a big one for me that I noticed in them, I was like, oh, that's something that I need to set limits with myself.

Melissa Urban:

It's a boundary secret weapon, our self boundaries, I think we often think about boundaries in terms of our relationships with other people, and they're so important. But we can also set boundaries with ourselves. And the good news about that is that we're not reliant on anyone else to hold those boundaries. So they can be incredibly powerful. It's something that you can enact right now, that will instantly buy you more capacity, better mental health, more energy, more time to do the things that you want to do. The hard part about it is that if you don't hold this boundary you set for yourself, like, who's gonna know what's going to happen, nobody's going to come out of the sky and slap your hand and say, You didn't hold your boundary around going to bed on time or not surfing Netflix, late at night. So I do outline a structure where you're thinking not just about what's happening in the moment, if you hold this boundary, but all of the benefits that are going to flow forward into future you and the consequences to future you, if you don't hold the boundary.

Chuck Shute:

Do you think it's good for people to like, post those kinds of things on social media to hold themselves accountable, like I said, I'm gonna, you know, turn off my phone every night at 8pm and put it on social media. So then their friends say, Hey, I thought you said you're gonna stop using your phone after 8pm That can

Melissa Urban:

be very helpful for some people. So Gretchen Rubin has a book called The Four tendencies. And it's an archetype card, this framework around how we respond to inner and external expectations. And there's a certain population group obligers that respond very well to external expectations. So if I say to you, I'm going to meet you at the gym, three mornings a week, I'll show up, and I'll be there because you expect me to be there. But if I say to myself, I'm gonna go to the gym three mornings a week, I have a really hard time making it happen, because I don't respond to inner expectation. Well, knowing your tendency can be very helpful with setting South boundaries. Because if your boundary is I'm not going to be on my phone after 8pm, you tell the world you tell your spouse, and now you've got some external accountability for people like me who are upholders who just say that I'm going to do something and I do it or people who are rebels, who have a really hard time doing things, even if they want to, you probably need different strategies. And I do talk about that a little bit because I think her archetypes so, so helpful. That's good.

Unknown:

I'm gonna have to check out BookOut that sounds really good. Yeah, cuz

Chuck Shute:

I sometimes I just don't understand. I used to work in the schools. I used to work with kids. And I was like, there was all these kids that just didn't do their homework. And I was like, wait, you can do that. You can just like not do home. Like, I didn't understand that. And there's a lot of people that that's just how they're they just like, No, I'm not gonna do that. You're just the rebels.

Melissa Urban:

That's not me. I'm an upholder. So if you tell me to do something, I can just do it. And it's easy. And if I tell myself, I'm going to do something like, not look at my phone in the morning, before my morning routine is done. That's a huge self boundary I've set with myself. I do not look at my phone. I don't look at email. I don't look at Slack. I don't look at social media, until I've done my workout. My little meditation had breakfast with my son taking him to school and had my you know, gotten my morning routine done. Yeah, it's hugely impactful for me.

Chuck Shute:

No, and I think that that works for a lot of people. Like a lot of people that go into the military, they need that structure. And I think some of that structure like I just think even doing the whole 30 For me, like I made a really helped me because I was like, Okay, these are the rules like I'm sticking to the rules and I just stuck with it for 30 days and I've done a few rounds of it and it really does make a huge difference. Do you recommend And the people do start with a whole 30 Would you recommend people read this boundary book when this comes out, and then do the whole 30 after,

Melissa Urban:

you know, I think that there, you can go either way, I'm obviously taking a ton of people from the whole 30 community, and leading them through this boundary conversation, because they've seen the power of boundaries and sticking up for yourself and for your health commitments during their whole 30. And they're now applying it to other relationships in their life. If you are new to the practice of boundaries, and you want to start really effective, incredibly impactful, but also easy way to start. The whole 30 is awesome, because the rules are so black and white, it's an elimination diet. So you have to complete it very strictly, you know, all doctors who prescribe elimination diets talk to you about the fact that they need to be done according to the books. And for 30 days you will be eating these things, and you will not be eating those things. And then you get to practice holding your boundaries around that. So when someone says, Do you want the wine at happy hour, you can practice saying No thanks. And if you need to, you can say no, thanks. I'm on the whole 30. But I encourage people just to say no thanks. And just see how that feels. And if somebody says why you can just say, I don't feel like it, not the mood, I'm not drinking right now. Not tonight, and stand in that power and see what it feels like to hold that boundary successfully. The whole 30 can be an incredible, proving ground and practice ground Giving you the confidence, and the increased energy and better sleep and fewer cravings and happier mood that the program brings that will carry you forward into some of the other tougher boundary conversations? Absolutely. Well,

Chuck Shute:

I don't want to give away the whole book. But this, let's just talk about some of the stuff because we're not going to go into all the examples. That's why people need to buy the book. But the three steps of boundaries. I mean, it does sound very simple. So it's one identify the need for the boundary like so if there's anxiety about something, set the boundary using clear and kind language, and then three hold the boundary. I mean, it sounds so simple. Why is it so complicated?

Melissa Urban:

It sounds simple. I think it's I think it's complicated, in part because it's deeply uncomfortable. People are uncomfortable, they're uncomfortable having needs, they're uncomfortable advocating for their own needs, they may not even be closely connected enough to themselves to know what their needs are, because they're so used to putting everyone else's needs ahead of their own. So it's uncomfortable. And I think the way that we've been conditioned, especially women, is that we aren't supposed to speak our minds. I cannot tell you how many times people say to me, oh, but direct communication is rude. And I'm like, no, no, direct is direct. Rude is rude. I can be direct and still kind. But I think as women and growing up my modeling for you know, boundaries were like, maybe you roll your eyes a little, maybe you make a little face, maybe you try to change the subject, maybe you laugh uncomfortably none of those are setting a boundary. In order to set the boundary, you have to actually say, the boundary, which is I don't allow smoking in my home, please put out that cigarette. Or, please don't talk to me about your religious views. I am exploring my faith on my own. And I don't want to be a part of that conversation. You have to actually say it. And all of those are perfectly polite and perfectly kind. But they very clearly express your limit and let other people know where they can meet you in order for your relationship to be healthy.

Chuck Shute:

Right? Because I think there's there's four different types of communication that way I understand there's passive, so passive, you just wouldn't say anything. And then there would be aggressive where you're like mean about it. And then there's passive aggressive, which is like the eye rolls and the snooty stuff and the Facebook stuff. And then there's assertive where you just say what you feel in a polite way, the clear and kind, as you mentioned in the book that many times yes.

Melissa Urban:

You know, clear is kind is a phrase that Brene Brown used in her book, dare to lead. And I asked her, I wrote her a note. And I said, Can I use this here? Because it's like such the fount it's the perfect foundation for boundaries. And she graciously said, Yes. Clear is kind. If you and I are in a friendship and you are doing something, say you are, I don't know, making, giving offering unsolicited advice about my parenting. Right. So every time you see me hanging out with my kid, you're like, oh, Melissa, you know, I read about gentle parenting. And that's not the way to do it, or are you sure he needs more screentime? Or, you know, are you sure you want to feed him that much sugar late at night, that's hurting our relationship. It's impacting our friendship, I'm now going to dread our conversations. I might not want you over the house, I might limit the time you spend with me and my son. So to just hint about it to say something like, oh, okay, there goes Chuck again, or, you know, to eye roll or to make a joke about it. That's not kind because I'm not telling you, hey, Chuck, you're crossing a limit with me and this doesn't feel good. And here's where my limit is. And I'm going to invite you to meet that. Can I ask you not to offer unsolicited advice about my parenting? If I want your input, I'll ask for it. But I'm not finding it helpful. And it's really kind of detracting from our friendship. Perfectly clear, perfectly kind. Now you know where the limit is, and you can go oh, man, I didn't know that. That's what I was doing. Totally, no problem. And now our relationship feels so much better. there and so much more free.

Chuck Shute:

And you think that people can do this in the dating world? Because I feel like that's a big thing that I mean, I don't I have a girlfriend. So I am I see all these people, I we missed the whole, like dating apps thing and the swipe, swipe left or right or whatever it is. But I feel like there's from the stories I hear, it's all there's a lot of just ghosting, where people just disappear. Is there a proper way to set a boundary with somebody that you went on a date with? And then you don't want to further a relationship with? I mean, could you set that in a nice way? So then, perhaps if you saw that person out and about it would be cordial. I mean,

Melissa Urban:

yes, that is the kind of thing the kind of thing is not to go on a date with someone. And to be nice. At the end of the day, say that was really fun. I'll call you tomorrow, and then just never call them again. That's fine. That's like really not nice. So this when I was dating, this happened to me, I had a first date with someone, it was coffee. They were nice. And I wasn't feeling romantic connection. And so at the end of the day, he said, Do you want to do this again? And I said, I'll be honest, I'm not really feeling much of a connection. I think you were really nice. And, you know, I really appreciate this coffee. But no, I don't think we'll do it again. It sucks to have to say it. And I know it sucks to have to hear it. And also what is the alternative? Right? The alternative is not saying anything, it's ghosting, it's lying. It's being mean, like hell, no, I don't want to go on this date again. So I was really honest, I'm not feeling a connection. So I'll pass. But I did have fun at this coffee. Thank you so much. That's how you do it.

Chuck Shute:

And well, that's it. I don't want to crush your boundary. But like with your own current relationship didn't wasn't there a breakup first? And then you guys ended up in a nice way. And then it rekindled Nine, eight months later, whatever. Yes, yeah,

Melissa Urban:

my husband and I, we've been married for a little over a year, year and a half ish. And we dated for about six months. And then he broke, he dumped me, he broke up with me, which I love trotting out at parties now that we're married, but he dumped me. He dumped me because he you know, we each had some processing to do, but he didn't feel like he was good enough for me. He's like, I don't I don't know if I deserve you. And I was like, Okay, if that's what you think then like, Okay, I'm not, I can't change your mind. I can't do that for you. But we ended it in a very polite way. And what we each said at the end was, I think it's best if we just don't talk for a little while, not because we didn't like each other. But because it was painful for both of us, it would have been hard for me to try to stay friends with him at that moment. So we were very clear about it. I think it's best if we don't talk for long, I wish you well, I'm really gonna miss you. And I had to hold that boundary with myself so hard. I can't tell you how many times I texted my sister and said, I really want to call him I miss him. And she was like, Don't do it, you got to give each other space. And when he came back around into my life, eight months later, we had both done a bunch of therapy and a bunch of bunch of self work. And we're very different people. But the way we ended it allowed us to come back together from a place that was, you know, really healthy.

Chuck Shute:

I love it. Yeah, I just love the nice, clear boundaries with people, I feel like it, it ends up good in the future. Even again, if the relationship isn't working right now maybe even with a friendship, it could be that way where the friendship ends temporarily. And then you both grown as people and then you become friends again later.

Melissa Urban:

Absolutely. You know, I think again, boundaries should be flexible. Relationships are always changing your context is always changing the boundary that you need. Now, you might need not nearly a year from now, when I was freshly divorced. I had friends that were friends with both of us, me and my ex. And they would occasionally say, oh, did you see what your ex was up to on social media? And I would have to say, I'm going to stop you right there. Please don't share stories about him. We're trying to respect each other's privacy. And it's really much easier for me to move on. If I don't hear about them. I don't need that same boundary anymore. So if somebody comes up and says, Oh, did you see what your ex did? I might just say, Oh, no, I didn't notice or like now we're not that involved. But I don't need to set a firm boundary anymore. Because my context changes. What this does in friendships, chalk is that it makes me a safe person for you, you know, that I will take responsibility for my own feelings and needs, you know that I will say what I mean, and that you can trust that I mean, what I say, you know that I'll advocate for myself. So when I say no to you, you'll know that I really thought about it and couldn't do it. But when I say yes, you'll know that I'm saying yes, authentically, not resentfully. Not begrudgingly. I won't be mad about it after the fact. And that creates a sense of trust and safety in relationships.

Charles Shute:

Yeah. And so if people, sometimes people get a little nosy, like, maybe early on, and I think you use this example in the book is that early on in your addiction, when people would ask you things like, why don't you Why don't you want to drink? Like you didn't feel comfortable sharing that. So how do you how do you kind of hold that boundary? And when people ask you, why not?

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, I always say it is not your job to guess my boundaries. It is my job to set and hold them which means you can ask me anything. Now people asked me some wild things that like in any polite society, we would probably say or not appropriate or, you know, polite, but early in my recovery when people would say like, Well, why don't you drink? I wasn't comfortable saying I'm in recovery. I was new. I was still Navigating it myself. So at the time, I would just say, I just don't. That's it, it does not invite further conversation. I'm not going to, you know, explain, I'm not going to try to over explain, I'm not going to try to justify, I'm not going to be awkward about it. I'm just going to say, I just don't hard stop. Now, when people ask me, why don't you drink? I will say, I don't drink because or use drugs because I'm in recovery. And also, that's not really a polite question to be asking people, because not everyone is comfortable justifying why they don't. And you could put someone in a really uncomfortable place. So I highly recommend just not asking, and if someone says no, just except there No. That's good to advocate. Yes.

Chuck Shute:

No, I love that. I love that. That's because I probably would make that mistake, too. I think it's very common. And I think that's one thing I've learned reading the book is like, these are common mistakes. I don't think people are doing it to be malicious when they when they might dig deeper. Like I'm just a naturally curious person. So but I would respect that if people said, you know, and you have explained the three levels that you have, like threat levels here, green, yellow, and red. And you get so many examples. But this really sets different levels of how to set the boundaries. Yes,

Melissa Urban:

so my boundary philosophy is minimum effort maximum effect, I want to use the gentlest kindest language possible and still have my boundaries set and respected. I don't need to go in kicking the doors down, if a very gentle request would get the job done. So my boundary levels green, yellow, red respond to the level correspond with a level of threat to your relationship. So the first time somebody does a boundary overstep, I'm going to use a green boundary. It's the gentlest language, the kindest language, I'm just assuming that the person didn't know that I had a limit there. And I'm going to let them know that I did. And I'm going to invite them to respect it. If they push back, or give me a hard time about it, or they continue to forget about my boundary, I might escalate my language to yellow, which is still kind, but it's more direct. And I may share the consequences. Hey, if you keep asking me or pressuring me to drink, I'm gonna have to leave the like I'm leaving the event. The red boundary is the threat to my safety, my mental health, our relationship is imminent, it is serious if you continue to disrespect. And now I am going to take the steps that I need to keep myself safe and healthy, which is you continue to pressure me around drinking, I'm going to leave. And we're going to have a conversation about these work events and how the environment is not healthy for your employees. Right? So green, yellow, red gives you a variety of languages to allow you to escalate if you need to, but also so that you get to go in feeling like you can enter the conversation very gently and kindly.

Charles Shute:

Do you ever have to jump right to the red like, maybe she's with a stranger or something?

Melissa Urban:

Sometimes, yes. When my physical space when my physical like body is at threat, so if I am not a hugger, and I'm at a wedding, and I, you know, someone approaches me, and I'm sticking my hand out to make it very, very clear that I'm a hand and they go in for the hug, I might immediately push them away and go to, you know, kind of us do the Heisman and say, I'm not a hugger. My name is Melissa, right? So you might have to go to the read immediately. But mostly in relationships, you can start with one of the gentler boundaries, especially if it's the first time you're setting it if you open with a red, right, if your mom caught, you know, you're sitting down eating dinner, and your mom says, You're going to eat all that and you say, Mom, I'm leaving the table. That's an appropriate red level boundary, if you've already asked her not to comment on your plate, and you've reminded her not to comment on your plate because it does a number on your mental health. But without that context, the right boundary just feels pretty harsh.

Unknown:

Right? Okay. That's good advice.

Chuck Shute:

So one of the things that the chapters is I love this the work life balance. I was like, Oh, I wish I this is again, there's so much stuff in this book that I'm like, I wish I got this book when I was like 15 or 16, maybe or at least 18 or 20 or something. But, you know, work life balance. Like it's one of those things that I think a lot of people don't think that they have the right to speak up against these things like work time, personal time, the ethical dilemmas, personal space and energy. I mean, there's example about somebody calling an employee on their vacation. I mean, it's super, like inappropriate, but we just don't think that we have the right to speak up about these things.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, work workplace boundaries are a bit of a challenge in part because of the power dynamics at play. So anytime you have a power dynamic boss, employee, parent, child, teacher, student, there is a power dynamic there in that you are supposed to be subordinate. You are supposed to follow instructions. This person is your mentor or your leader. And also that relationship still deserves and the business and your work product are still benefiting from you having healthy boundaries. The other challenge, of course, is that in order to hold the boundary, you might have to make some really challenging decisions, which is it Is this workplace culture so toxic? And are all of my efforts towards boundaries? Are they just so disregarded that I need to think about do I need to transfer do I need to report it to HR do I need to try to find a new job. And those are always easy answers. But there's an infinite number of kind of spaces in between, I just do everything everyone asks me and I shut my mouth. And I take it all on, and I quit my job. And that's what we talk about, you know, in this chapter, it is the idea of protecting your personal time, please don't call or text me after hours, please don't call or text me on vacation. If you have something that you want to send after hours, and it's not an emergency, please choose slack and email. And then you don't respond to after hour texts, or after hour phone calls or phone calls on your vacation. I've got a whole section on bomb proofing your out of office message because most of us do not do a good job it is I'll be out of office with limited access to email, that's not doing it. That means maybe they're going to check email once in a while. And maybe I can also call them and like you got a bomb proof that out of office message. The same goes for your in work time, your personal time, if you have a boss that's micromanaging, or colleagues that are, you know, stepping into your cube and inviting conversation, when it's clear that you're busy. There are boundaries that you can set around that. And you should

Chuck Shute:

yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that would help the world right now. Because I feel like there's this epidemic. Have you heard of the term quiet quitting I share has gone on. And I don't know about you, but I've just experienced it just going out into the world like, you know, going to the dentist going to the doctor going to get my car fixed? Like, it just seems like there's a lot of people that don't want to be at their job. And I feel like if they maybe set the healthy boundaries, then maybe they would enjoy it more. I would also say and this is something you don't talk about in the book. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. What about from the other side? The people that are the boss? Can they set the boundaries with their employees and say, Hey, Steve, like, I don't want you texting on your phone when the customers are coming in and setting those kinds of bounds. I mean, I guess maybe that kind of goes without saying that's their job as a boss. But

Melissa Urban:

yeah, I think in the quiet quitting conversation, which is not really quitting, what you are essentially saying is, I will not work for free, and I am demanding an equitable exchange of labor for value. And, yes, I do think employees should feel empowered and have the language to set boundaries. And also, it is not just their responsibility, it is management's responsibility from the top down to create a culture where boundaries are normalized and respected, where employees contributions are recognized and valued, where their personal time is respected. Their work time is respected. Like this is not just on the employees, bosses need to work from the top down, to make sure that they're modeling the kind of behavior that they want to see. So if I say we value your work life balance as a CEO, and then I'm out sending emails at 9pm on a Friday night, that's not modeling the kind of behavior that I am saying that I espouse. And if you had a workplace culture, where you felt like your time was valued, and respected, your boss understood the language of boundaries and helped you to hold them and you were recognized for going above and beyond when you have the occasional project. And I say, hey, Chuck, can you say a little late this weekend, we are really behind in this project. And it's important, I'm going to be probably far more happy to say, Yep, I will pitch in, because now I have created it. And I am part of a culture that will respect and reward that extra effort. Otherwise, you're just asking people to work for free. And I don't blame you for not wanting to work for free.

Chuck Shute:

No, it like and one of the tips you give it to is it's really interesting because it reminds my brother kind of went through a similar thing. You say, do some reading, reading the HR and the state laws with workers and things because my brother was at this job. And they, they they wouldn't let him take a break or something. And he looked up the laws. And he's like, You have to let me take a break. And they respected him more for that they respected and I think it gave him a promotion after that. So

Melissa Urban:

your company policies are like you should have them in your back pocket, you should know them, talk to your other employees to your fellow coworkers. Because if one of you is feeling the burnout from your boss, who's constantly texting you nights and weekends, everybody is and there's absolutely power in numbers. Yeah,

Charles Shute:

absolutely. Well, and then chapter four, this is a big one, I

Chuck Shute:

think for a lot of people is setting the boundaries with families. And I don't want to give again, I don't want to give away the whole book. But there was one example that I really liked. Because this happened to me, my my parents go to church every Sunday and when I went back to visit for Christmas, they were gonna go to like Christmas Eve church or whatever. And look, I don't I you know, I appreciate people that are Christians or whatever religion I respect all that I've had a Christian preacher on my show, but just it's just not for me. I didn't want to go to church and my dad said, your mom would really appreciate it if you went to church. So I gave in and I said, Okay, I'll go to church. I didn't realize that read your book. And I'm going wait, I could have said no, I can say no, I can have a boundary with that. I want that boundary.

Melissa Urban:

You could have said no, you couldn't have that boundary. This is again one of those there is no one size fits all right. Well, I don't go to church myself. I have a very close personal relationship with God but I didn't go to church but if I were to be back home visiting and one time my mom said it would mean a lot for you to go to church. I'd go Now, if every time I talked to my mom, she was trying to put Jesus, you know, Jesus is on my heart to talk to you and trying to shove her faith down my throat. That would be a very different conversation and a very different boundary to set. So I talked about scripts that you can use in that scenario, Hey, Mom, when I come, I'm really excited to come visit. And also we will not be going to church with you. And I would really appreciate if you didn't bring it up during the visit, just makes it really uncomfortable for all of us wanted to set that expectation up now. Or maybe you automate the boundary and you say, Hey, we're coming to visit, we're going to come in Thursday night, and we're going to leave very early Sunday morning. So there's no opportunity to go to church because your head now before and you avoid the conversation altogether. So automating the boundary is actually a very smart strategy to avoid the boundary conversation altogether. You're sort of like pre empting it with your action.

Charles Shute:

Yeah. And I mean, he's talking about boundaries not only with parents, but obviously with with kids and and family members. This is I'm kind of joking about this, but kind of not What about setting boundaries with pets? Like how do you because that's like, my cat comes and wakes me up at like six in the morning? Like, I can't talk to my cat though. What do I how do I set a boundary with my cat?

Melissa Urban:

I don't know how trainable cats are. I feel like cats are just like little jerks, aren't they? I don't know. But you know, with my dog, my dog is trainable. So like I have trained my dogs such that he's not allowed to get on the furniture if he's not invited. So I don't know how many boundaries you can actually set with pets. It depends on like, how coachable or trainable they are. But if you don't want to be woken up before 630, can you automate the boundary by putting the cat outside the room closing your door and using a white noise machine so that if she's like whining and scratching at the door, you don't hear her?

Charles Shute:

That would be because he would definitely

Chuck Shute:

scratch the door. That's pets and interesting. And then see, let's see chapter five relationships that we choose. So one of the things that was interesting this one is that you bring up these different kinds of Emotional Vampires, which I had someone else on the show to explain what that was just, you know that these people that suck your and these are the people that suck your energy, like I said earlier, the ones that call and you go, I don't really I don't want to talk to this person. But one of the categories of that is that the narcissist and that was really interesting to me. I had been doing a deep dive lately. There's there's entire YouTube channels that are dedicated to narcissists. Explain what your in your understanding what a narcissist is.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, so it is a, it is a diagnosed mental health condition. And I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but essentially, in the form of emotional, you know, vampires are friends, it's the person who keeps you around as long as you are in service of them, if you are doing something for them, if you're making them look smart, if you're pumping them up, if you are a nice prop, because they needed someone to like, be with them, they'll keep you around. But once you're not serving them, they kind of don't want anything to do with you. They like to manipulate you, they like to make sure that they feel like they're the smartest person in the room, the best person in the room. And they essentially chip away at your confidence and your self esteem, such that they now have a sense of control over you and power over you. And those kinds of friendships can be incredibly toxic and incredibly draining.

Charles Shute:

Yeah, it's scary stuff. Like Like I said, people can if they're more interested, they could, they could watch you too. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos, and there's all these different terms for that. I feel like that could be your next book is writing about that. It's really interesting. There are

Melissa Urban:

some great doctors who talk a lot about narcissism and yeah, I've got some personal experience too.

Charles Shute:

Yeah. And then the other ones you talked about the

Chuck Shute:

soap opera star, the drama, and it's kind of like the drama queen, the controller and the victim all these different kinds of Emotional Vampires.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, yeah, the the soap opera star is the person who's like always in drama. There's always something you're never gonna believe what happened to me and they just need to stop you into their drama. And you're like, you could prevent or they say like, I don't like the drama. And I'm like, Yes, you do. You live for this, right? So that is exhausting, and can be exhausting. The controller is somebody who maybe not manipulative from the narcissist perspective, but they always feel like they need to have input they need to make the decisions they need to be right. And then the victim is perhaps the one we're all the most familiar with. And the one that's the most emotionally draining. It's the person who is constantly emotionally dumping on to you, asking for your advice, never taking your advice and never making any changes nor taking responsibility for their own situation. So they just dump their stuff onto you, and expect you to hold it and carry it. And that is the entire relationship. They don't ask you about yourself. They don't it's not like an equal partnership. It is just a one way dump. And that's not fun or sustainable.

Chuck Shute:

Right. And I love this part of the book. I'm going to read this quote when you establish limits to make the relationship a healthy space for you and someone repeatedly refuses to respect those limits. It's time to end the relationship. And that kind of blew my mind because I'm like, you don't think of ending friendships like it just don't think of that something that and maybe two it could be the thing more we talked about earlier where people do it but they don't actually sit down and say that they just ghost them right. So talk about example of a friend breakup and why you would need to do that.

Melissa Urban:

You know, I think we think about friend breakups is like is very dramatic step to take in a friendship like why would you need to break up with a friend, it's you're not monogamous, you have a number of friends. So it's usually like, well, this person's like not great behavior can be forgiven because you have all of these other friends that can help you meet your needs. And it can feel hard to break up with a friend. Because very often you've got sunk cost, you've invested a lot of time and energy in this person, and you might have history with them that you don't have with anyone else. I have friends that go back 1020 years before I met my husband, and breaking up with them can feel like cutting off a piece of my own history. And also friendships change, people evolve. And if you find that you are giving far more energy to this friendship than you're getting back, and you've set green boundaries and yellow boundaries, you know, maybe it's, I wish I could be your therapist, but I can only be your friend, which is a beautiful quote that Laurie Gottlieb says, and or, you know, maybe it's, Hey, we talked about this last week, and I recommended these one, two or three things that you could do. Have you done any of those yet? Oh, you haven't? Why don't we talk about this again, after you've tried those things. And then you change the subject, there are ways to set boundaries. But if this person continues to disregard and disrespect to emotionally dumped to take, take take, and you're not getting anything back, the kindest thing you can do for yourself, and then is to free your energy up and break the friendship off clearly. Not just ghost and hope they disappear. Because that can only feed the cycle. Are you mad at me? Why are you mad at me? Why haven't you talked to me? And then you feel bad. So you say, Oh, I'm not mad, let's get together, and then you're back in the same situation. The kindest thing is just to have a friendship breakup. And I give you an actual script to do that.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, you have the slow drift and the cut

Charles Shute:

off and people need to get the book and then you'll explain it all. It's great stuff. And then relationships, I love that the main thing that you talked about in this is, you can do it anywhere you want relationship. I love that because I think there's all these, you know, stereotypes of relationships, a healthy relationship needs to be this way or that way. And but really, you should be able to do it. However you both want to do it. Obviously, it can't just be one person wanting to do it one way. But yeah, you

Unknown:

can do it any way you want. Yes,

Melissa Urban:

it's one of my foundational relationship principles. It's actually one of my foundational principles in life, I grew up Catholic. And I was told as a Catholic that the only way you can have a relationship with God is if it's intermediated, by the Catholic Church, and most specifically by this like old white guy, who was gonna tell you what God said he was gonna translate it because I wasn't qualified to have my own relationship. And I left the church and really struggled with my own faith. And then at some point, 10 or 12 years ago, I realized I could have a relationship with God anyway, I want to, and I crafted that for myself. And it's so rewarding. And it's so fulfilling. And you can do that in any aspect of your relationship I just talked about on tick tock this idea of, you know, well, if you're married, you should share a bank account. I'm like, No, there's no should. You can do it any way you want, share a bank account, or don't pay all of your own bills individually split the bills, or one person pays all the bills, you ask about big purchases, or you just spend whatever you want. Because it's each your money as long as you agree. You can do it any way you want. And it's such a freeing relationship principle, because it asks each couple individually, look inward, talk about your needs, share them together and arrive at a solution that works for you as a team.

Chuck Shute:

Right? Yeah, it says it's also more than boundaries. It's like you said communication and expectation. I think those two things. And that could be again, that could be a whole nother book to write because that's a totally different thing. But again, you do it any way you want it or whatever works. As long as you're communicating the expectations are there for both people, then I think it can work.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, absolutely. And that goes for finances. That goes for socialization it goes for I had a conversation recently with some friends who are like, you do you sleep in the same bed was your husband every single night? And I'm like, nope, not every night. If one of us is super tired and goes to bed early, he'll sleep downstairs. If we're sick. One of us sleeps downstairs. If he wants to get up super early and doesn't want to bother me. He'll sleep downstairs. If I'm just not feeling it. I'll say babe, I'm sleeping downstairs. And I think that's a very healthy way if we agree that our good night's sleep is more important than the social construct of us sharing a bed. And I think that's so empowering.

Chuck Shute:

Now, that's beautiful. My grandparents slept in separate beds, and they were married until their 90s. So I mean,

Melissa Urban:

yeah, yeah, I need to normalize those conversations.

Charles Shute:

Totally. What now what about I don't have experience with this, but co parenting that that would definitely be one that is very tough to set a boundary with because especially if it's somebody that maybe they didn't respect your boundaries to begin with, and that's why you broke up with them. But now you're trying to you have to set a boundary because you're you're sharing a kid?

Melissa Urban:

Yes, co parenting is really challenging. And I know from experience, my son is nine and his dad and I divorced when he was one. So we've got a long history. And we co parent very well together now in part because of the boundaries that we've set with each other. And then boundaries that I've set with myself and that was especially poor important early on in the communication where I had to be the one not to check up on what she was doing. I said, I want each of us to maintain our privacy and my life and Moving on would be easier. If I just did not know what he was doing. I now had to say, Melissa, don't go look at his Instagram. And that was very important. So I think a lot of times co parents want to set boundaries around things like you can't keep coming to pick up the kid late or you can't go out again, you know, and let your mom babysat, you just went out last night. Those are not boundaries that you can set because you cannot control the other person's behavior. And you cannot control what the other person does with their child in their own home. As long as the child is safe and healthy. Those are not behaviors, you can set a boundary around. But what you can set boundaries around are things like how you choose to communicate with your co parent. So rules of engagement. I don't, we don't call each other names. We don't make it personal. We don't reference old fights. Maybe it's around topics of communication, I have a boundary that we only talk about the kid. And it makes it so easy. We don't talk about vacations, current partners plans for the future, how work is going Nope. If it's not about the kid, we are not talking. And that is such a nice clear boundary for both of our relationships. So I think that there are boundaries that you can set with the other person. But then I also encourage people to think about what boundaries can I set with me to make sure that I am projecting my own energy, time and space in this challenging co parenting relationship?

Unknown:

Yeah, that's really important. So and you

Chuck Shute:

get again, you give more examples in the book. And then the one chapter eight, the where you're talking about the food and alcohol on the table talk. I mean, this is kind of like, relates closest to whole 30. But one of the lines is interesting that you said in their office, often the people closest to you are the most likely to disrespect your boundaries around food and drink. And the example that I can think of for myself is like, I see this with guys a lot and drinking booze. Like I know some of it's just playful, but like, sometimes it definitely crosses a line, like come on, have a beer, come on, have a shot, like they'll just people will just sometimes give me a drink. And sometimes, like for whatever reason I don't want to drink that night. Or maybe I'm an old 30 or whatever. And and sometimes it's like it makes you feel like really uncomfortable. And then I kind of sometimes like give in because I'm just like, Oh no, I should set boundaries with that stuff. It's yeah, and I think that's really common with

Unknown:

guys.

Melissa Urban:

It's really common in general around food. I think food is contentious. It's like next to politics and religion, one of the most contentious discussion topics, and it comes up all the time, because we all eat. I remember the first time I was doing the whole 30, which was like when I created the program in 2009, rolling into my office with a very different lunch than I used to have and sitting down with the same co workers to eat lunch. And it was like the circus came to town. Everybody was like, What are you eating? Why don't you don't want pizza with us today? Why don't you want pizza? You can have a piece of pizza like Don't be ridiculous. It was wild, I did not expect that kind of pushback from the people who were my really close friends at work. And what can happen is that people can see your behavior change. No, thank you. I don't want the wine. No, I brought my own lunch today. And they see it almost as if you're holding up a mirror to their behavior. And if they don't like what they see in the mirror, if they if it reflects back on them, their drinking habits, their relationship with food, their dietary habits that they have maybe wanted to change or thought about changing, but having it can make them feel very defensive and very threatened. That is not your responsibility. But I do want you to be aware that it happened so that you can go into these conversations speaking from a sense of self without judgment. So you know, Chuck, do you want a beer? Nope. You don't know if you knew this, but beer is not very healthy for you. How is that going to come across to everybody else at the bar with beer in hand? So it's far more effective to just speak from the self? No, thanks. Oh, come on. You can have just one not tonight. Thanks. Come on. Like you're no fun. Hey, I've said no twice. And you keep pressuring me. And that's not cool. I'm good. And if they continue to pressure maybe it's like guys, this is not fun and not cool. And like I'm gonna take off and catch you another time. You have to be the one to hold it. But there are ways to do it that are not judgmental, that they don't provoke unnecessary defensiveness from your partner and that they don't invite argument. No, thanks. I don't feel like it. Nobody's gonna argue with you. Yes, you do. Of course you feel like it. Of course, you're in the mood for pizza right now. Like, no thanks. Not feeling it right now. Nobody can argue with that.

Chuck Shute:

It's just weird in our society that we don't encourage those kinds of things like oh, you're giving up alcohol? Like, that's awesome, bro. Like, yeah, like, are the you know, like, Oh, you're trying to eat healthy like good for you. Like why is that not encouraged? Why is that looked upon with shame? I don't get that.

Melissa Urban:

Well, with booze. It's like absolutely marketing. We are marketed to so hard when it comes to alcohol. They spend more than a billion dollars a year marketing alcohol to us. And it's the only drug that we have to justify not using right if I say, Hey, I stopped using heroin, you'd be like, Wow, amazing. Good for you. Nobody really knows why. Weird that we are like that? Well, but it's because of the societal pressure that it's so societally acceptable, that has been marketed to us that like, can you even break up with a boyfriend or have a tough day of parenting without a glass of wine? Right? That's what the marketing agencies have kind of given to us and because our relationships with those things are so complex and often unhealthy. Just watching people make other decisions for themselves can again feel very threatening for us, huh?

Unknown:

Oh, that's yeah, that's just that's,

Chuck Shute:

it's sad to see that I wish that we could all be more like, you know, you see it on the media too with the the fat shaming, but also, you know, just a lot of that, like, when people lose weight, celebrities will lose weight that were previously overweight. They'll shame them for losing weight, like they sold out or something. And it's like, but isn't that a good thing that they're being healthy, like I don't understand, or they

Melissa Urban:

attach way more worth and value to the weight loss and assume that they're healthy now that they've lost weight. And it's like, just does this person have an eating disorder? Were they recently sick? Are they going through grief? Like it is? Yeah, it is just really the best not to ever comment on someone's body that is like one of those standard boundaries that I think that we can and should apply everywhere. Don't talk about people's bodies.

Charles Shute:

That's good. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. Yeah, definitely. That's, that's very good advice. Because it Yeah, makes me uncomfortable from either side, you know, rather, but better just not say anything.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, compliment their music compliment their acting compliment the way that they're showing up or how kind or generous they are, there are a million other ways that you can pay someone a compliment, other than you look skinny, or did you lose weight? Because that's a very loaded statement.

Charles Shute:

Yeah, no, that's a good point. And that's, that's kind of transitions into chapter nine Handle with care. So setting boundaries around sensitive subjects. So there are certain things that where you have to be very careful with those kinds of boundaries, right?

Melissa Urban:

Yes. So you know, I have a chronic health condition. I got a concussion four years ago, I'm still navigating post concussion symptoms. I'm one of the lucky few that still has really serious symptoms many years out. And it's really hard for me when I say something like, I'm still navigating symptoms, and people go, Oh, are you like you're still sick? Or, Oh, how did you get your concussion? And I tell them and they go, that doesn't sound that bad? Or, oh, have you tried this essential oil or this dietary fix? Like, there are times where it is better just not to insert yourself and around sensitive subjects of chronic illness or disability a loss? Even the question, Do you have kids? Seems so innocuous. But if you are talking to someone battling infertility, who just lost a child who has had miscarriages, that question has the potential to cause serious harm. Now that I am aware of that, I just don't ask. Hey, Jeff, tell me about yourself. If you volunteer that you have kids, now we can talk about it. Sure. But I'm not asking and running the risk of you saying, Actually, my partner and I just suffered our third miscarriage and like, holy crap, that is not the impact that I want to have. So Handle with care.

Charles Shute:

Yeah, that's a good one. And then chapter 10, you

Chuck Shute:

talk about this, again, to this setting and holding boundaries with yourself. And I love the way you phrase this. It's so perfect is like, is there a goal that you're working towards? That could be furthered? If I just set a limit? I feel like that's a brilliant question to ask. Like, for me, I feel like it's my phone and social media and TV, probably those three things like I love watching sports and movies, but I probably should set some limits, because I will just spend an entire Sunday watching football.

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, and that's okay, maybe, maybe that's okay. And every, you know, every once in a while you enjoy doing that. And it's really fun. And maybe it's social for you. But if you find that that behavior is getting in the way of your goals, I want to work out three mornings a week, except I find myself so tired at the end of the night. And I'm just like surfing Netflix, and I end up staying on way longer than I want to and then it's 11pm. And then I have a hard time going to bed and I don't sleep as well. And there's no way I can get up in the morning to do my workout. Are there boundaries that you can set with yourself around screen time and bedtime, that make achieving that goal so much easier. So you know for several suggestions. Maybe you don't watch TV during the week and TV is only a weekend thing. Maybe you program your TV to self turn off after one hour. Maybe you watch one episode and that's it. Or maybe you only watch Netflix or sports while you're doing something else that's like productive. So I love pairing Netflix shows with tidying. I'll be in my closet. I'll be organizing hanging things up putting laundry away and watching my like the most terrible Netflix shows all of the terrible reality shows. And when my tidying is done, my TV time is over.

Charles Shute:

Perfect. I love it. Chapter 11 This is something that I wanted to I love this quote people reacting badly to your boundaries means that you're revoking a privilege they were never meant to have. Oh, that's just brilliant,

Melissa Urban:

right? People don't and won't always like it when you set a healthy boundary. Hey, sister, I know that you've been bringing your dog over every time you visit, and you know that my son is allergic. And I need to set a boundary now you can't bring the dog over anymore. If you come over with the dog, the dog either has to stay in the backyard or just don't bring him at all. And the next time my sister shows up with the dog I can say oh cool, you brought the dog gonna leave it in the backyard or do you want to run the dog back home? She's not gonna like it, she's gonna say, I don't understand this was okay before, why isn't it okay? Now, you have to understand that their reaction to your boundary is not your responsibility. You, they're gonna have feelings about it and they can have whatever feelings they want about it. And also your boundary is your boundary. So you can say, Yes, I used to allow it. And you know what it made me really resentful. And I was, you know, it always made my son really stuffy. And you would always leave and I'd be mad at you for bringing it over. And that's not fair to you. And that's not kind. So now I'm saying, hey, you need to leave the dog at home. And that's going to make our visits and our the house, you know, the health of our house so much better. And then your sister is allowed to process that boundary however she wants, but you do not have to be responsible for processing it with her.

Charles Shute:

Now that's that's a good point, because that is something that I've heard before when I've set boundaries with people is well, you, you allowed this before, like, you used to talk on the phone with me for an hour before. Why won't you talk, you know, for an hour now. It's like, I'm setting a boundary. I don't want to do that anymore. So you're right. It's like it causes you to be resentful.

Melissa Urban:

And sometimes your context just changes. Yeah, you know, six months ago, I had capacity for long phone conversations, and I just don't right now. That's it, you know, so that the same goes for I hear from a lot of people who are like, Oh, I volunteered for this thing a year ago. And I loved it for a while. And my life has just become so chaotic that I can't maintain it. But I feel bad for quitting. And it's like, okay, but if your life is chaotic, you're not giving that volunteer opportunity, the time and attention that it deserves, and that someone else could give it and you're running yourself ragged in other areas of your life. So when I volunteered, I have the capacity for this. And I've really enjoyed my service here. I no longer have capacity. So I'm going to step down the end. Beautiful.

Chuck Shute:

What do you think? Do you think there is one of these categories? That is the hardest boundaries for people to set? Or is it just very for the person?

Melissa Urban:

I think it varies, you know, parents, especially can be challenging, because you have these long standing family dynamics to go up against. So you know, even though you're a grown adult, now, I noticed myself falling back into childhood past like patterns of behavior. When I'm around my parents, the, you know, the the bount, the trope that like they liked my sister better than me or I was the smart one. And my sister was the pretty funny one that everybody liked, like, we fall back into those patterns. And it can be really hard to sort of rewire our own brains, and then re establish new patterns in families where the existing behaviors have been in place for decades. So I do think that that can be especially challenging. But I think it also just depends on the relationship. You know, some people may struggle in romantic partnerships, but find it really easy at work and vice versa. Hmm,

Chuck Shute:

yeah, I would definitely say with family, it might be tough, because that's one where you can't break the relationship. A lot of times, like you're gonna see the sister, your sister at family reunions, or your brother, your parents or whatever. So yeah,

Melissa Urban:

I think it's easier to set boundaries with strangers and acquaintances, because the stakes aren't as high, when the stakes are high, when it's your spouse, when it's your own kids, when it's your parents, and you really want to preserve the relationship within healthy limits. I think it can be far more challenging. Yeah.

Charles Shute:

What about this is one thing that I don't think you brought up in the book, but I wanted to ask you about, like, with more extreme boundaries, like, what if somebody needs to get a restraining order, or like, you know, stalkers, or sometimes these people that like, you know, for yourself, person in the public eye, you may have these hangers on from your past that try to come back into your life and pretend like you're their best friend. I mean, how would people figure out when it's that time to take it to the next level?

Melissa Urban:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's highly individual. If you're at the place where you are truly afraid for your own safety. Absolutely, you need to report it to the authorities reported to human resources, whatever that looks like in an attempt to keep yourself healthy. I also think that there are tools in place that we can use to our benefit. So the same kind of technology tools like the block button, I employ the block button liberally if I'm getting a bad vibe, vibe from somebody, if I'm struggling in communication, if somebody even if they're a family member, or a friend is sending me unsolicited, like political memes or viewpoints or articles that I just don't want. And I have expressed clearly, please don't send that stuff to me. And they continue to I have no problem blocking or unfollowing. So there are some things that we can do to kind of insulate and isolate us. But one of the things I want to say especially for women is trust your gut. Trust your gut. If you feel like something is often a boundary needs to be set. I want you to trust that and listen to it all too often. We're told don't be hysterical. Don't be ridiculous. And quite honestly, that behavior gets us killed. So listen to your gut. Trust yourself. I would rather someone think that I am just a bitch and being ridiculous. Then run the risk that I am too nice to somebody who means me harm. So

Charles Shute:

That's what I'll say great advice. So err on the side of being a little more cautious than being too permissive

Melissa Urban:

as I do. Yeah, you know, I don't I don't think we I don't have to be polite to everyone. And I definitely don't have to be polite to people who are creeping me out. And I stand by that.

Chuck Shute:

Yeah, I agree. No, I think if you have the right that gut feeling, I love it. That's great stuff. Well, this is a great book. Everyone should get it. I think that's all the some other stuff that we could talk about whole 30 But I mean, people just could get that book too. Of course, that's a life changer as well. I always end with a charity. Is there one or multiple charities you want to mention here then? I think you'd mentioned mentioned something in the emails.

Melissa Urban:

I did mention the Utah abortion fund. But I'm going to pivot right now and say the Utah Food Bank, okay, we really the Utah Food Bank is really in need. I've been donating to them regularly and whole 30 dozen is Oregon as an organization as well for years. So if you found this conversation helpful, and you'd like to chip in a little bit, I think the Utah Food Bank would really appreciate your donation.

Charles Shute:

Okay. I will put that in the show notes along with your website and people can preorder the book now if they're listening to this past when I camera when it comes out October 11, October 11. If it's passed, then it's that's available to buy right now.

Melissa Urban:

Thank you so much. Great chatting with you. Thank

Chuck Shute:

you so much, Melissa, I'll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks. All right. Bye. Bye. Thank you again to Melissa urban, CEO of the whole 30 co author of the whole 30 books, and now the author of her own new book, the book of boundaries. I think it's essential reading for anyone who interacts with humans. So unless you're a total hermit, this book is going to help you. I think it can change a lot of lives and I'm excited for people to read it. You can preorder the book now or it may already be available depending on when you're listening to this episode. Her other books are already available now. If you enjoyed this episode, please support the show by checking out other episodes liking, sharing, commenting, subscribing, and if you want to go to that next level, you can write a nice review of the show on Apple podcasts and appreciate that. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.