Dr. Katherine Ramsland (professor of forensic psychology & author)

Dr. Katherine Ramsland is a professor of forensic psychology at DeSales University. She holds degrees in philosophy, psychology and criminal justice. She has appeared on more than 200 crime documentaries and shows, is an executive producer of Murder House Flip, and has consulted for CSI, Bones, and The Alienist.  She has written more than 1,500 articles and 68 books, including “Confessions of a Serial Killer” about the BTK Killer.  In this episode we discuss the BTK Killer, potential active serial killers, red flags with serial killers & mass shooters, and more! 

0:00:00 - Intro
0:00:43 - Books 
0:02:10 - Serial Killers & Science 
0:10:17 - Psychopath Vs. Sociopath 
0:17:10 - Narcissism & Mental Health
0:20:58 - Popularity of True Crime 
0:26:58 - Conspiracies, Emotion, Logic & Facts 
0:30:40 - Staircase Murder & Cognitive Errors 
0:36:50 - Accuracy of Convictions & Mistakes  
0:38:40 - Communicating with BTK & Prison Situation 
0:45:20 - Wife of BTK & Signs of Serial Killers 
0:49:15 - Mass Shooters & Red Flags 
0:58:01 - Violent Movies & TV 
1:01:15 - Michigan School Shooter 
1:03:20 - No Perfect Killer Profile 
1:06:54 - Charities 
1:08:30 - Murder House Flip 
1:12:10 - Outro 

Confessions of a Serial Killer Book: 
https://www.amazon.com/Confession-Serial-Killer-Untold-Dennis/dp/1611688418

Cold Case Foundation website:
https://www.coldcasefoundation.org

Women for DeSales website:
https://www.desales.edu/alumni/giving/choose-your-impact/women-for-desales

Bethlehem Mounted Police website:
https://www.bethlehemmountedpolice.org

Murder House Flip:
https://therokuchannel.roku.com/details/10e1bde7c1d956d494b83d0e54b1c962/murder-house-flip

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:00

Hey Dr. Catherine rams Lynne is here today to talk about her work in forensic psychology. She's written over 70 books, of which I've read one, Confessions of a serial killer about the BTK Killer. And she's also part of the series on a&e Based on that book, and both are great. And we're gonna talk about that. Plus, we're gonna talk about red flags for serial killers and mass murderers, psychopaths and sociopaths. If there are any active serial killers out there right now, and much, much more stay right there please welcome Dr. Catherine rams Lynne. You prefer just Catherine? Catherine is fine. Okay. Yeah. So I'm just I'm so amazed by all the work that you've done, how many degrees you have how many books you've written? I don't I mean, seriously, it's inspiring. I had to look I was like, Okay, who has more books? You are Stephen King. You have 68 Stephen King was like 64.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:01

I actually have 69. Now. Oh, 60 is that I just signed for 7071 and 72. So yeah, I'm on my way.

Chuck Shute: 1:10

Wow. So the latest one that's out is the BTK one right are the other ones coming out in August.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:16

There's been others since him that one came out. And 2016 as a hardcover. 2017 has paperback recently as an audio book. That's I've had some since then.

Chuck Shute: 1:30

Okay, what is the most recent one?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:33

The most pandemic hurt. The most recent one is coming out this August. And then before that, that was how to catch a killer, which came out from Sterling. And that's the 30 cases of serial killers who got caught and how they got caught. Oh, okay. I'll have to I have to check that one out. Yeah, these are all wanted to read as many as I could. I got one I got that's about as many as I can get ATK one. And then I watched the series about it to the how to catch a serial killer. And that sounds really interesting. Because it seems like now there's not very many serial killers because of the DNA stuff. It's hard for them to repeat killing, right? That's not true. They don't think about stuff like that. They they often think they're immune to capture. They're smart, they know how to take precautions. And also they're killing is not about logic and figuring things out. It's compelled by, you know, whatever, whatever's motivating them. And they do believe they can get away with it. And you know, what we we don't know who everybody is. There still are certainly series of crimes. So we don't have we have not arrested anyone for. So that's not that wouldn't be a reason why, why they've diminished. I know people are making that argument. But I don't see that. That's true. So you think there's some serial killers that are out there right now that just haven't been caught? Yeah, I mean, look at look at what happened with Sam little. A couple years ago, he came out and said he'd been killing for decades, to the tune of 93 victims. We didn't know anything about him. And during that time, he was very clever about the types of victims he picked, which he knew would be under the radar, mostly black female, drug addicted prostitutes or runaways, or people who got off buses or, you know, people that they just wouldn't command very many resources for an investigation. So, and he was right. And he then confessed and turns out, he had been killing people. And so there were a number of unsolved cold cases attributed to him. They did not like 93 to him, but they linked over 50. Is that was that one in Ohio? Or where was that? He was all over the country? Oh, somewhere in Ohio, Cleveland. Okay. But California, Texas, Florida. He was in a lot of places. I had on somebody from this this website called the murder Accountability Project. And we spent a lot of the episode talking about the Chicago strangler, because that seems to be one he thinks there is a serial killer in Chicago, that the all the strangulations happening, they're linked to one person. Maybe

Chuck Shute: 4:18

you've studied that case at

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 4:19

all, you know, until we get the person and find out if we can unless there's DNA that links them. If it's if you're just looking at behavior or geography, something like that. Maybe it's speculation even Yeah, Jack the Ripper with the so called canonical five victims. They might not all be linked either.

Chuck Shute: 4:44

Really what you thought the Jack the Ripper could also be way more victims to write is now more or less, okay.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 4:52

Or no Jack the Ripper at all? Yeah. Just never

Chuck Shute: 4:56

know. Yeah, this guy has like all this data and he looks at these data points. And that's where he's coming to that conclusion. So the points always need interpretation. Sure, yeah. Nothing's like you said until we catch the person. We don't know for sure. But the DNA definitely does help a lot. Right?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 5:12

It does, because that makes a link among scenes and among victims view, if you have victims in new each other, are you have the same kind of victim in the same kind of trade, for example, sex work, or are they all worked in the same gym or, you know, something like that, you have a more likelihood, but it's all probability analysis. And probability analysis has an error rate. And the size of that error rate is all it is related to how much you're speculating. So when somebody says there's a serial killer, that will link all these crimes like the trucker idea that there's all these truck routes across the country linked all these either missing or murdered women, maybe till we catch them and can definitively place in there, there's an error rate. And we could be wrong. So I don't like saying, Yeah, that. That looks good. That's a serial killer. I don't know that.

Chuck Shute: 6:18

Right. Do you think the killers now are watching these crime shows and things and trying to pick up tips and tricks on how to not get caught?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 6:27

They've always been doing that BTK demonstrator went to criminal justice classes. Yeah. And he was in a classroom with one of the pathologists who was talking about one of the victims and the autopsy hit me. He was sitting there listening to his own work.

Chuck Shute: 6:46

That's creepy. So one of the things he did was he, he turned the heat up in the rooms that actually even do anything.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 6:53

He only did that once. And he read novels. Something sounded interesting. He tried it. I did that once. Because yeah, that boils time since death estimates.

Chuck Shute: 7:08

Okay, so it does do something. But I mean,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 7:10

yeah, but it didn't, wouldn't have helped in that case, that was the teros wouldn't have helped because the younger kids went to school, their parents are alive. When they came home, they found their parents dead. So it's very small timeframe. And there, it's it's really not going to matter that much. And honestly, it was just somebody who was trying not because he was so clever. But he read about it and thought, let me do this.

Chuck Shute: 7:37

Right. But that's kind of a myth that people think that the serial killers are like these Hannibal Lecter is really smart people. That's typically not the case. Most of them are below average intelligence, right?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 7:47

Well, I mean, we're, we're talking about we have documented over 5000 serial killers. So your IQ is going to span similar to that population as it does to the population at large. There are some bins, streets smart, but not IQ smart. There have been some IQ smart, but not street smart. Many of them are just average or even lower than average. But look at Gary Ridgway, the Greenway, the Green River Killer. You know, his IQ was definitely low average. And yet, he got away with at least 49 If not more murders, because he was straight smart. He was clever, huh?

Chuck Shute: 8:31

That's a good point. Because I wondered about that. Like, I read that too, that his IQ was below average. But yeah, he's one of the most prolific

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 8:39

be the polygraph.

Chuck Shute: 8:42

Oh, that's right. Yeah. How does he do

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 8:47

it when you believe your own narrative, when you're sure about your own story, it doesn't register polygraphs only they're taking body readings and said they're not truth detectors or lie detectors they're they read physiological reactions to things and if you know he's a psychopath, he can he already has low physiological arousal in the first place. If he's practiced if he there I don't want to teach people how to grab zone I'm gonna go into all that here but there are certainly are ways to do it. And if he's done any any looking it up at all. Yeah, now there was no internet in the 1980s or someone like him to look stuff up but certainly if you lie easily, because they're they have no investment in truth in investment only and getting away with doing what they want to do. So if you have no investment in truth, it's not going to register in your body.

Chuck Shute: 9:50

Right like, because this is the the way the lie detectors work is they they register like anxiety and guilt and he did not feel guilt or anxiety about

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 10:00

On primes. Yeah, he was helping the police

Chuck Shute: 10:03

is what he Yeah. So the fence was

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 10:07

eliminated. Yeah, eliminating sex workers. That was what the police wanted. He was doing right thing.

Chuck Shute: 10:13

And a majority of the serial killers are psychopaths, or what's it what tell me the difference between psychopath and sociopath is I was confused those two. Well, first,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 10:22

let's talk about the word psycho covers two different distinct populations, psychotic individuals and psychopathic individuals. Psychotic individuals are disconnected from reality, their thoughts are disordered, we have some serial killers who were psychotic. Now, if they also are psychopaths as maybe something against schizoid path, they're really dangerous, because they have disordered thinking on top of no remorse and no conscience and nothing like that. The sociopath is an older word that comes from the 1950s and 60s, some people still like to use it. Most professionals aren't really using it, there's no diagnostic instrument for it, what what the diagnostic instrument is for his antisocial personality disorder. So and and psychopathy also has a diagnostic instrument. But different countries use different things. So our country tends to use the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for mental disorders, which is antisocial personality disorder. Don't talk about psychopaths, unless they distinctly use the psychopathy checklist. But that psychopathy checklist is used in a lot of other countries. I personally prefer psychopath there's not really a distinction, because there's no diagnostic instrument for sociopath. That's an elder word. It doesn't mean much to me.

Chuck Shute: 11:57

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Cuz I read a book called The Sociopath Next Door. And this was all about how

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 12:02

I took all this psychopath stuff.

Chuck Shute: 12:05

Okay, because it said like, one in six people are sociopath, which is sounds scary. But then she explains that, you know, like people like a surgeon or people in high military, jobs and things they need to have that disconnect from what they're doing.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 12:22

You can have that disconnect without being psychopathic, right? It's called a clinical approach to things I have it when I'm when I'm working with, with clients, or even with serial killers so that that doesn't make me a psychopath or a sociopath. That is a that's a mental state. That's, you know, you're doing your work. It's clinical. And if you don't have a diagnostic instrument for sociopathy, what does it even mean? Doesn't mean anything. Now, there are some people who make the claim. a psychopath is born a sociopath is made. That's one that's one of the distinctions that kind of makes some sense because the person who's a sociopath might have had child abuse, neglect, things like that, that they're reacting to. And they're developing that resentment and that ability to harm others with no remorse that is typical of a psychopath. And for psychopaths, we certainly have a lot of brain scans that tell us their brain structures are different. So they're born into this condition, which doesn't make them first at all criminals, doesn't make them serial killers or murderers by any stretch of the imagination. Most are not criminals, but they do have that psychopathic condition of having very shallow emotions. No, no real connection, aside from whatever serves their purpose because they're pretty narcissistic, egocentric. They don't have remorse for harming others, they tend to be manipulative and parasitic, and all the things that we use as measures of psychopathy. But that doesn't necessarily make them criminals. They could just get in a relationship lie to you with ease, take your resources, break promises, things like that. They're not criminals, but they're still not fun to be with.

Chuck Shute: 14:18

So how what percentage of the population are we talking about would share that similar kind of brain scan? If we looked at 100 people?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 14:27

Robert hare who's the psychopathy, the premier psychopathy researcher says there's one in 100 I don't, it could be in a different, different occupations, you're going to find it to be higher like CEOs, politicians, people who the psychopaths tend to like power, they like money, they like the things that are exciting because they have low physiological arousal and this this arouses them. This is something that makes life into a game. So you will find more of them. In certain types of professions than in others, they don't tend tend to gravitate toward low key caring, self sacrificial types of things, because that just doesn't interest them unless they can see a way to enrich themselves from it. So you're going to find that that 1% to be different in different occupations, how they come up with 1% I don't know I I've never made any sense of that personally.

Chuck Shute: 15:31

But it's possible that there's a lot of people that maybe have this kind of predisposition, but they channel it and go into a more healthier route like it's not so

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 15:40

and also there's a theory called almost a psychopath. So you're, you're on a continuum and you're closer to the you know, one pole than the other so you don't really quite come up on the high on the psychopathy checklist to be diagnosed as a psychopath. But you're you're almost there. Alright, so that gets finely nuanced. And, and certainly, we have other personality issues like narcissistic personality disorder where they're highly narcissistic, bordering on psychopathic. They're, they're just, you know, Arrested Development, juvenile or infantile types of people. That doesn't ascend, make them psychopaths. I like to use the word psychopathic, which is more of an adjective to talk about the kind of behavior we see, especially if someone has not been formally diagnosed as a psychopath, such as Dennis Rader never was formally diagnosed as a psychopath because nobody used the psychopathy checklist. And yet, does he exhibit many of these behaviors? Yes, he does. So he would, I would say he's psychopathic. And, you know, on his bad days, because he likes to talk about being a good person who did some bad things. To friends on one day, you get him on?

Chuck Shute: 17:07

Yeah. Well, you mentioned narcissism, that's an interesting one, because you feel like it was our society that is getting worse. Like that seems to be everybody wants to be an Instagram model, everybody's a tick tock star, doesn't mean that they're all going to be psychopaths or serial killers. But it is something that it seems concerning to me does that something is that something that's concerning to you,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 17:27

I mean, narcissism is present in all of us, because it's a survival mechanism, we are going to be thinking about our own preservation first and our own interests first, no matter what, unless you have to rescue your child or something like that. But typically, we're going to have our own perspective as our first point into the world. That's, that's a, a degree of narcissism. It's not unhealthy. It gets unhealthy when it when those people become that really believe they're the center of everything, and are the most important person in the room and they should be treated, spent in a special way. They're entitled to things. And yeah, our society has grown to the point of really supporting that. Were those tick talkers are becoming influencers, and they're getting vast amounts of gifts and special treatment and whatnot, but, you know, once they stop being influencers, they take a big hard fall, because they're not so special. And then you get depression and suicide attempts and, you know, nasty games with others trying to undermine them. And, you know, it's it's a problem. And I think, I think if people really believe their narrative, and they're on these various videos, and you know, websites where they are so very important and entitled to special treatment, they're setting themselves up.

Chuck Shute: 19:03

Really, so do you think that's going to get worse, as like, you're saying, like, when these tick tock stars when they start to fall off and not maybe not be as popular or they get older or whatever, then they're gonna suffer some major health problems, mental health problems?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 19:15

I think they will. Yeah, because they don't, they're not being guided in having any perspective on it. Those who have perspective on it fine. They know that this is something that's working for them right now. It's gonna be a fad, it's gonna last only so long. But you know, the pressure is on really from from advertisers, they're the ones who are looking for someone who make a difference, who sell their product and, and bring in the money. And as long as that pressure is on, and it always will be in our society, you're always going to have people set up to, you know, be the face that will bring in the funds, and those people could get used, exploited. and eventually dumped and unless they have some perspective on it, where they have some an emotionally healthy approach to it, I think they're going to be very surprised, and this isn't gonna last their whole lives.

Chuck Shute: 20:13

So the emotional healthy perspective would just be to maybe be grateful and take it like one with a grain of salt, knowing that this is just something that's fleeting and probably won't last forever.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 20:23

Yeah. And if it does last forever, you're so much the better, right? Because you weren't expecting it to and, and it's a nice surprise. But more often than not, it's not been the last and you're you shouldn't be prepared. So yeah, emotionally healthy is recognizing it as a pocket of your life, and not your whole identity.

Chuck Shute: 20:47

Okay, yeah, that's a fascinating little tangent that we just I just, that's such an interesting part of society right now, I felt like is with the narcissism. So that's interesting to hear your take on that. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 20:57

And, I mean, you are seeing it. Somebody asked me today, what's, you know, I started all this stuff back in the 90s. And when wasn't popular to be in true crime. And that was considered the ghetto of writing. And now it's very, very big. And someone asked me why you know, what has changed. And I podcasting is one of those things that has changed. People are jockeying for being the one to solve the unsolved crime, or identify and catch the killer and, or bring a new tape to an old crime. And they're jockeying for position. Now, some sent many of them get along and support each other, but some are very competitive, and they want the audience share, or they think somebody else's narrative is, is incorrect. And they, they want to be the ones to replace that narrative. So you are finding a lot of competition right now in the podcasting world, in the writing world, in the documentary world, anywhere, there's entertainment and an audience to be had, you're finding a lot of people jockeying for to be the one. And this becomes a problem. I actually wrote a blog about this, where it's, it's, it's called with Yadi. It's W W. YSI, ATR, what you see is all there is, and you're getting people that are trying to solve these cold cases, or link cases, with limited ideas and logic. And when they can do it, they think they've found the truth. And now they jump out there as the one who has solved this crime. And that's why we have 300 Jack the Ripper suspects and, you know, half a dozen or more Zodiac suspects. And because each person owns the crime, because they think they've solved it, but what, but they've used only what they have, and it's not necessarily the whole story, because we're constantly discovering new things.

Chuck Shute: 23:09

So is that a bad thing? Or is that a good thing to for people to be thinking? And have you think they need to

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 23:15

be aware of it. And I wish police officers were aware of it because they do similar things where they, they jump to conclusions, they want to get a case solved quickly. They think that they've collected a certain amount of evidence, and that's all there is to collect. So that's all there is to the story. That's not necessarily true. So I think, I think the cognitive error with the rd what you see is all there is, is a problem. But it's good for us to know about it. And it's good for people who want to think their way through these crimes, to be alert to the potential that they're falling into this trap. And I think you saw a very good documentary, and that was the I think it's called crime scene, the Hotel Cecil or something

Chuck Shute: 24:06

like that, where it's a hotel, I was on my show from it. And

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 24:10

as you saw all these two cars, crime junkies got into the fray as what really happened there. And they identified a suspect and they harassed that person, and they knew that she had been murdered. And that person was driven almost to the point of suicide. Turns out totally innocent. He had nothing to do with it. But they had worked their way into logic, and what has to be true based on the evidence, all of that in air quotes. And they and they were all wrong. Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 24:43

But don't you think sometimes it is good for these podcasters or authors and things to shine a light on cases that were kind of ignored like the Golden State killer that was a patent Oswald's wife, kind of I think she wrote the book or I can't I think it was a book. That

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 24:59

was It was Paul holes who did that? I don't want to, she brought attention to it. And she brought attention to the potential that the of these three different crime sprees were linked. Yeah. And she named the Golden State killer. But it was really the work done by Paul holes that that identified DeAngelo as the killer was the genealogical DNA evidence, and he took a chance on something that had never been tested before. So he's really got to get the credit for that. But no, But your point is, and well taken is the other end of the spectrum of let's keep the light on these cases. So these victims don't get forgotten. So that somebody's there and in many cases, because the light is on the case, new evidence surfaces, somebody broke up with their boyfriend, and now they're ready to take on on them, or girlfriend. Somebody said, Well, the police never asked me this, but I do know about blah, blah, blah. So new things surface new technologies can be used to look at older cases. And so yes, the podcast world is helping with that.

Chuck Shute: 26:09

That's all I try to do is just trying to light I don't I'm not trying to solve anything

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 26:12

I've been I've been getting, like, what I'm trying to say is to your original point about the tip top world and narcissism is what's what can be a great tool also nurtures some dark mentality where you get competition, you get people jumping in to harass suspects, like with the Cecil Hotel case, you get people deciding that they own the case and shoving everybody else out. So as an every human endeavor, you'll get the noble reasonable things, and you'll get the darker nastiness.

Chuck Shute: 26:57

One, it seems like the most outlandish things will get the biggest press. I mean, you had like you had Alex Jones saying Sandy Hook was a was a total hoax. And they mean nothing, just the press then people knocking on the doors of the victims, I mean, these terrible things. So yeah, you got to be careful what you say that I think that was just clearly for attention and to be outlandish. And unfortunately, it seems it's outlandish stuff goes to the top of these algorithms on social media and such. It

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 27:23

does. And it also raises emotions in ways that attract people, they, and it seems to express what they already had a suspicion about. And now somebody has put it into words. And yeah, that makes sense. Most conspiracies operate off of logic. People think logic is the same thing as truth. It isn't just a tool to put together your thoughts to make them sound coherent. But if you start with false premises, you'll end with false premises. And no matter how much logic you use, people don't seem to understand that logic, it feels good to make a logical case. So it's the truth. That's how they understand it. That's not the case. That's and we struggle with that as college professors, trying to get people to do critical thinking that just because you can make a logical case doesn't mean you're right.

Chuck Shute: 28:20

So how, explain that because you're you're you have a PhD in philosophy and you taught logic. So explain that. The critical thinking. I mean, obviously can't tell me everything, but like a basic critical thinking, how can people distinguish between BS conspiracy theory, and some conspiracy theories, I think are interesting and fun. But I know that they're conspiracy theories, and there's the there's no conclusive evidence that they're true.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 28:45

Well, unfortunately, we're in an age where evidence doesn't matter. There are alternative facts, right, right. In Motion outweighs thinking your way through the evidence in motion outweighs it. And I've heard politicians say that the emotion the emotion part is more important. It's not, that's where we get misled more often than not. But then you they'll hear me say something. Well, logic is not the key to truth, it is a is a method and it can still lead you in the wrong direction. And so they're going to hook on to that. While it's not about making a logical case, either. No, but it is about facts. And there are facts that you can bring to bear to corroborate things. But sometimes those facts can be slippery, in terms of they're ambiguous so you can take several interpretations off of them. That's how conspiracies work is they'll start with a with kernels that people understand that are familiar to them. And they'll build their big idea from that. And they'll keep going back to the kernel. To reinforce, reinforce, we know this to be true. And out of that springs, this other thinking is it's hard to I mean, I don't want to name any particular conspiracy, because I want to live right. But I think you don't have to look very far to see how how absolutely grandiose they can get and, and, and the emotions there to keep it in place. And you get one person after and I have friends who believe some of these things, and the only thing I can do is go wow, wow.

Chuck Shute: 30:37

What about your I'll give you an example to get your take on this one the staircase? Have you seen that new? I mean, there's like three documentary, I think there's the real documentary. And then there's the, the acting one that they just came out on Netflix. And now they're saying there was this this theory of A, was it a bird or a bat? Or?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 30:54

That has always been what is

Chuck Shute: 30:57

your case? I mean, that guy seems like he killed her. Like, it seems black and white to me. And there was blood. It's not

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 31:04

it's no. And also that what you call the real one was made by a person as I understand it having an affair with him. Right, you know, how real is there's emotion? There's, there's bias in that? Yeah, inevitably. So whatever the real one is, who knows, but there always was the owl theory. They just did not give credence to it, because they thought so what there's an owl feather. What does that mean? But I actually am glad somebody kind of picked up on that one. Because that was that those kinds of interesting, unusual theory, and she didn't have marks in her scalp that were like a claw hallmarks that really weren't explained by her hitting the stairs the way they went. And we do know that several people in the prosecution team, one of them lied about his experience in the evidence that he did. So we know. So he's out of the picture. Another one's lied about his credentials, so he's out of the picture. And the coroner, there are all kinds of issues with her, you know, so when you start to pick to pick apart that, that idea, or you know, the theory that they had, and you pick apart some of their so called experts, whoa, that there's a problem with that case, no doubt about it isn't as simple as it seems. And in part because of the way it was investigated and reconstructed. Now, I happen to know the people on the defense side who the criminalists who are involved, and some of the what they did in their lab and whatnot. And they did find flaws with the prosecutors idea they did show, but the jury was invested emotionally, anti this man having affairs with men who's married and all that. So there's no getting past that. I don't care how good of a case you make with your evidence. There's no getting past entrenched bias and emotion. So it's

Chuck Shute: 33:05

more problems with the case and proving it rather than B.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 33:09

Sides. Yeah, both sides. Definitely. So I like I haven't seen the scripted series. I'd like to destroy the

Chuck Shute: 33:17

happiness. Colin Firth is amazing. Yeah. And our

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 33:21

theory is interesting. And that was part of it. Right away. There was somebody who, who wrote an entire treatise about the owl. But it was ignored at the time. Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 33:32

No, I mean, I had to laugh at some of the recreations where she slept like eight times and hits her. I mean, it was it seemed a little silly, but

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 33:40

I have the crime scene photos. And I'm telling you, there is a lot of blood for the scenario that the prosecutor built and his blood expert, hardly tested. So that's a problem.

Chuck Shute: 33:53

Yeah. And that's what you that's what you do you look at a lot of these things and try to figure out what happened and and I

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 34:00

have my students do it. Oh, okay. We set up crime scene scenarios and the red herrings are there the evidence is set, they have to not just observe, but think about who they are as observers, psychologically. What are they? Are they the type of person who has a high need for closure, for example, so they'll jump to conclusions right away? Are they the kind of person who will look at things and in their spotlight of focus will not see other things? Like, for example, I had one where there was a guard dog in the scene. This is a real case. The dog was was locked up in the garage. So even though the family was afraid, they kept their guard dog locked up. And I had two of them went through the whole house and they go so the dog ran away. The dog is right there. It was a big step to Rottweiler right there Right, right, if they didn't see it, it already assumed the dog ran away. And so they did not see right in front of them. So I talk a lot about the the quirks of observation and of cognition, the cognitive errors, the psychological states that can be part of an investigator and an investigator does not know themselves. They will miss they'll have blind spots and the way they approach a crime, they might jump to conclusions and fail to see that some of the evidence is there, they might have confirmation bias and only see what works with the theory. They're forming the hypothesis they're forming. That's a problem. And many cases have gone off the rails for that, and innocent people convicted.

Chuck Shute: 35:49

That's not a good thing. I'd be a terrible juror because I almost always think the person's guilty. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I just I watch a lot of Forensic Files. I'm like, Look, they got the blood splatter. They got the DNA, like this is an open and shut case. But I'm sure yeah, there's little things like that.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 36:07

Even Forensic Files. I mean, I've done stuff with them. And yeah, it's wrong on some of the cases.

Chuck Shute: 36:15

One of them apparently, that they were because they said the blood splatter on that one, that there was no way he had been hitting for the splatter to come on his shorts like that. But I guess maybe they were wrong.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 36:27

They couldn't be wrong if they did not do the testing of the blood on the wall. And that's a problem. Yeah, you can't just make assumptions by looking at it, you have to do some testing. And they and I think as Dwayne deburr, I think it was his name didn't test even though he claimed to have done so. And then it turned out other cases were problematic puppets.

Chuck Shute: 36:49

Do you think we're getting better at being with the evidence and the DNA and all the stuff that we're getting more accurate in those kinds of things in terms of convictions and whatnot, though?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 36:59

Well, but again, everything has a story. Everything has the potential for bias and interpretation, no matter what the facts are, you still have to build your your reconstruction. And that will, if you're an attorney, if you're the prosecutor versus the defense attorney, that story is going to look different, and it's going to make the evidence look different. And also, sometimes there's, sometimes there's nothing you can do, like let's say somebody comes in and confesses to golfing and it exactly matches. And you're the defense attorney, what are you going to do? Well, it's probably go for an insanity defense or something like that. Now, you're in the arena where you can really twist things around in terms of mental state, but you can't do much with bad evidence. If the person said I, yes, I did. I put the rope around her neck, I blah, blah, blah, blah. There's not much you can do, unless you find the person who put him up to doing this. So now you pan back. And now you have a whole new scenario where the guy isn't the killer, but he's afraid of the guy who is or that's his son. So he's going to take the fall. You know, I mean, like, most of this crime shows us those twists. Yeah, those are real, real twists on real cases. Or what

Chuck Shute: 38:19

if they put DNA in a crime scene? Like, what if somebody plant is that a real thing that could have that's kind of scary. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 38:25

Yep. Yeah. Or you happen to be there. So your DNA was there doesn't make you the killer,

Chuck Shute: 38:30

right? Yeah. Now, there's a lot of security, things like that. So with BTK, though, gosh, like, I remember one time I was on a jury, I was beef. I didn't get picked for it. But they said this guy was accused of killing. I mean, I just got chills being in the same room as him. Was, would you ever had did you have that when you first started talking to these killers? I mean, I know what BTK was on the phone. But when you're ever like in the same room, did you first get chills? Why I went

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 38:56

to the prison, but hear me he wasn't the first serial killer I talked to. So yeah, probably the very, very first letter I got from a serial killer is what you're getting at. Okay. The very first time I received a letter from a serial killer, I looked at the envelope and thought, Oh, that is just creepy. And yeah, it had an aura. It had an aura contagion of something corrupt. And if I touched it, what would it you know what I mean? It's not superstitious, but a lot of people do that. I have people who refuse to touch anything vtk and sent me they can't because they think it's gonna somehow invade them. And in frankly, the very first time I got a letter from a serial killer, I felt like I don't know about open this. But there had been years between that and actually talking with Raider. So by the time I'm talking with him, I'm not disturbed. I did, I did go to the prison, but in, they had him in one room and me and another with a monitor. So it's not even even the glass partition that you typically see on these TV shows, wasn't even that. So it was much easier to talk on the phone because there weren't guards around, listening in on everything. Your calls are recorded, but it's not like the same as you know, somebody's right behind you at the door listening to what you're saying. So it was most effective to talk on the phone.

Chuck Shute: 40:31

You because he was scared of the guards to hearing so he spoken coat like, I mean, he's already convicted and guilty. So what is he worried is going to happen?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 40:39

Oh, it's more that they're going to take things in Salem on the internet, which they did, which they weren't doing. Oh, like, like, let's see wasn't really supposed to be working with me on this? Oh, he's no, there were sort of two ideas. First of all, this was all sanctioned by the victim's family trust, okay, there was a consortium, when this all started was five years before I got involved, where another person wanted to write a book. And the victim's families got together, had a lawyer sued her. Because they didn't want her or him making any money off of their victims pain or whatever, whatnot. She then want, wanted to deliver it all to them. Whatever proceeds there were, but by then damage had been done. And by the time I saw her on Facebook, and so whatever happened to your book, she asked me, Would you take it over? Well, the arrangement was already made, that I would take my expenses, but the majority of the money is going to the victims families. So there's one contingent of people who supported that I thought that was a good idea. There's going to be a book, there had already been numerous books about the investigation. And the investigators. There's going to be a book with this guy one way or another. So they could keep some control over what it was about. That's what they wanted. And they liked that I wanted to use it for getting benefit in forensic psychology, criminology and law enforcement, and as well as them so that way, they it gave them some control. But that didn't mean everybody was in supportive this, certainly law enforcement wasn't in support of it. The DEA initially Wasn't she was a friend of mine, before I even got involved. I did convince her it was a worthwhile thing to do. So then she was supportive. But there were people in the community who thought this should have never happened. There are people who think that once someone commits a crime like this, they should suffer and hell the rest of their lives. But I'm telling you, he's not suffering. He's busy. He corresponds with people all over the world. They give him money, they give him gifts. He probably has more attention now than he ever had in his life. This is his family. Yes, he would rather be free but he's not suffering and how he's living isn't what happens.

Chuck Shute: 43:05

He's living in a 12 by eight concrete cell. He doesn't have a cellmate does is he able to interact with the other prisoners at all or No, no,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 43:14

no. Well, how does he use general population because he's a he's famous, he would be a target. He also is manipulative.

Chuck Shute: 43:24

So how so you can talk to people on the phone? And is he allowed internet and stuff or cable TV?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 43:29

No, no internet, but he can watch TV. He's got a TV in his cell and and whatever cable the prison has, he can get access to, but he doesn't have the internet. Okay, but people can text him he they they have tablets in prison now. Where you can make your commissary orders digitally and, and he can get texts and he can get videos from people he can't send the he can text out you have to pay for just like you have to pay for the calls. But yeah, it's moving in that direction. So

Chuck Shute: 44:03

these are the messages of those messages monitored and such. No, no,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 44:08

I mean, they're on the tablet. They could be if there's digital tracks. Yeah. They Grindlay just like the phone calls are recorded, but who's sitting there listening to every prisoners phone call? So is

Chuck Shute: 44:20

he happy? Because now he's getting all this attention and fame? Is that kind of what he wanted all along?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 44:25

He wanted fame. He is. To some degree, he's always happy when he sees his name and print. That's always a big thing for him. But no, I mean, nobody's happy, who wants to be out and about and making their own life decisions and eating the food they want to eat? So nobody's happy like that. But given the circumstances. He's not having a terrible life, how the way people wish that it was

Chuck Shute: 44:55

interesting, and he doesn't. He doesn't have nightmares or guilt or feel remorse for any of the things that he does not that's not torturing him.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 45:04

Now it never. He never had nightmares like that. He's he does regret hurting his family, especially his wife, ex wife. He does have regrets, but that's not the same as remorse.

Chuck Shute: 45:18

Okay, yeah, I'm glad you brought it. I was gonna ask you about the wife. So you say in the book, the wife caught him in bondage one time, then or twice, okay. And the wife read a book about it and talk to like a person in the church or something. And then she seemed to accept it. Oh, this is just the way he is.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 45:36

No, no. It was more either have to leave you get a divorce, which is not okay. Okay. Within her religious idea, or I will accept it, but we will. You will never do this again. We will not talk about it. It wasn't wasn't like, Oh, okay. No, I think she was horrified by it. But the only other option was we have to separate and she didn't want to do that either. She had two kids.

Chuck Shute: 46:03

Yeah. And so she's never been interviewed. She you think she's read the book or watched the series?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 46:11

I can't really talk about her. I, you know, I Yeah. Okay. Well,

Chuck Shute: 46:15

do you think? Just in general, Are there signs and clues? That I mean, it's always shocking to me when they when these serial killers get caught? And, you know, they have family members, they have children, they have neighbors and friends. And everyone seems to be so surprised Is there is there signs or clues that you may be married to a serial killer or you know, like that people could pick up on or, well, they're

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 46:39

not going to be distinguished from you may be married to somebody who's having an affair, or a con artist or rapist, they're not going to be distinguished that way. Because they're, they're pretty good at. First of all, there's two things going on. One is the offender wants to keep their behavior secret. So they've worked up a pretty good shield. But secondly, nobody married to a killer or, or the daughter or son or father or mother of a killer wants to believe their relative is a serial killer. One of the best books on this subject is Jeffrey Dahmer is father, who had numerous things that suggested that his son was not okay. And he was able to explain them all away. And even at one point, he was holding the head of a victim in a box. And and Jeff managed to persuade him to not open the box because it contained pornography.

Chuck Shute: 47:39

Oh, that's right. I remember seeing an interview. And he

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 47:43

did not open the box and had to have stick.

Chuck Shute: 47:48

Right? Yeah, you're right. And

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 47:51

but that's what happens. It's a cognitive safety net. And a way you can always look at whatever this developing kid, for example, is doing and explain it away as a phase they'll get away from it. Oh, they just like they're just experimenting with animals, because they're going to be a biologist. So they're just experimenting with, with explosives, because they're going to go into the ATF, things like that. There's always ways to explain why something some behavior is not a serious aberration. And especially if you're having an investment and staying married, like you don't have a job, and you've got kids, and what are you going to do without this person? Or that person abuses you anyway, and you've just learned to live with it. And there's so many cases, it's hard to kind of generalize about it. But there are two things always at work, the killer and their shield. Wow, they build that because right or went to church and had a job and you know, nothing about him suggested serial killer. And then there's the person who has cognitive ways of reframing any given behavior to be more benign than it really is. Same thing can be said for the development of people into mass murderers. We see we see much more in the background of a mass murderer than a serial killer. And yet people don't say anything. They don't want to believe this person really could go into an elementary school and shoot somebody up. Right? Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 49:30

Okay, so there are so you feel like there are red flags with the so the different serial killer mass murderer serial killer is like multiple incidents, whereas a mass murderer is usually just one large incident like

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 49:40

that. And a mass murderer typically is is provoked with anger, revenge, fantasies, punishment, entitlement there, there are a number of things that they they tend to share in common, unlike serial killers who have diverse motivation. Shannon's diverse things that they're operating on. And diverse developmental trajectories is much harder with somebody like that than with a mass murderer.

Chuck Shute: 50:11

So what are the red flags? Because that's something that I feel like is one of the problems with the mass murder thing right now the mass shooters and things is that I know the latest one, I think it was the ivaldi he texted some girl and said, I'm gonna do it and sent like a picture of guns. And she was like, oh, like she was clueless? Could we educate the public? Everybody, I feel like not just kids. But like all all people on some of these red flags. I felt,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 50:37

give a shout out to Peter landmines, book warning signs, because not only does he have, he's probably the world's expert on school shooters. He has a website with all of the cases and all of the documents,

Chuck Shute: 50:53

I need to have him on the podcast then. Yeah.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 50:56

And he shows at the end of each of these chapters, those those possible incidents that were stopped by somebody who saw the behavior and did something about it. So even though we will have cases where somebody says I didn't take that seriously just because he posted it on Facebook or whatever, we will always have those we are having more and more and more of the ones that were stopped before they happen because somebody did recognize the warning signs and said I see them in this person and police were able or counselors or teachers or somebody was able to intervene and prevent it from happening. So that book is fabulous for not just educating you on the warning signs but showing you the people who made the difference.

Chuck Shute: 51:50

Okay, yeah, I want to read that that sounds fascinating. So if we without getting into the gun thing whether we have more guns at schools to combat the killers but if we magically somehow if they're found out which I don't think it's possible to be somehow took every gun out of America and the cartel couldn't have them and so these killers these mass shooters did not have guns. Okay, so they do not have access to a gun they do they can't get a gun. Would they still have that urge though? To kill to do a mass killing would they get in a semi and run people over would they poison water? Would they do Molotov cocktails like

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 52:24

poisoned water knives have been used in mass murders and other countries that don't have access to guns. Explosives certainly is as been the in the weapons of mass murderers, cars fixing and planes and they go down kill a lot of people. Yeah, they still want to do it. They still there. They're turning anger outward. And, and because and I'm going to put this on the media because the media gives them fame. Some of them are motivated to make sure they have the highest victim tall, not all of them. But some of them have actually made those statements. They want to be famous. They've seen every someone else in the news who did this. They're going to do it too. But they're going to outdo Columbine, for example, there are multiple Another thing about Peter Langman site, he makes he takes Columbine from 1999, Littleton, Colorado, and shows how many of our met our school shooters since those days have cited Columbine as their inspiration. And there are lots of them. Either they, I saw them do it, they were cool. I'm going to do to or I'm going to outdo them.

Chuck Shute: 53:44

Wow. Yeah. No, it's interesting like that. That was a big one. Because I remember I was in college, and I was studying psychology. And that's what made me wanted to be a counselor because I thought, Oh, I could I could help you know, those kinds of kids like that and try to prevent that. It seems like we haven't figured out the answer to this. So

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 54:01

we have no, I mean, I would recommend that book.

Chuck Shute: 54:05

So why don't so why isn't that more widespread? Why isn't that something that media reports on and said, Here's the red flag, why don't they teach that in schools? Why don't they? Like for every student, every student, every kid in high school gets these you know, every everybody we all know because I don't even think I know what all the red flags are.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 54:26

The ones I named probably are we don't surprise you at all. Entitlement, anger, a sense of being punitive wanting to be famous because they've seen somebody else get fame from doing this. Having a grudge list. Those Those are all logical things that would would come together and then they have they are a maths, their weaponry. They they typically will tell us especially if they're younger. Moreover, the younger ones will tell someone or warn someone don't go to school today. You're gonna see me in the paper, more younger ones have a mental illness attached. And the older ones do. But even so it's not it's not more than 50%. And yet you see the headline, so they're all mentally ill now they're not. Now they're not actually, they're angry, and they want someone to notice them, and they want to punish somebody. And these are the things that make and they watch. Other people do it. And they believe in their fantasy life. They're taking satisfaction from it, even if they're, they have a suicide plan in place. They're imagining the headlines and the TV shows and the news reports, that's all very satisfying in their fantasy life. It would never ever become that satisfying. If they carried it out, got arrested and ended up in, in prison, ask those who have who did survive. There, they'll tell you nothing. It was nothing like the fantasy life. Right? It sounds

Chuck Shute: 56:06

miserable after now they're spending their life in prison or they're there, they've done the suicide thing, and they're dead. But I mean, you're spending your Christmas and your birthdays in jail. I mean, everything, missing everything, especially for the young kids that are 18 that haven't lived. I mean, it Rader got arrested when he was in his 50s or 60s. So I mean, he had lived most of his life anyways, but these kids that are 1718 they're gonna miss their whole life to for one shooting incident. So

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 56:33

yeah, there's a great interview online, easy to find with Kip Kinkel, who was the Springfield Oregon shooter, when he was 15, he expected to die hit that the police would shoot him they didn't he ended up in prison. And he has been talking to a journalist and it's a really great interview about his case, and and the issues he was facing at the time. And he killed his parents. And then he went to school and started shooting. And, and his reflections on that what his life has been like that was that was 1998. So he's been in prison for a while. And the things that he has to say about it, and what what he understands about himself, I think, I think it's useful to read interviews like that, and to then teach it. I have my students read it. Yeah, they said that they get it, this is not the solution to anyone's problem.

Chuck Shute: 57:30

Right. But that seems like that approach is not very widespread to with the media

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 57:37

must be don't think don't want to think about dark things like this. You know, it's they just want to move on. But, you know, and it doesn't necessarily help to keep it in the news. Because then you're just there inspiring more people who want to be in the news who want to be the one that everybody's talking about?

Chuck Shute: 57:58

And what about besides the regular, like the news media and stuff? What about like movies and things? Like I know, Raider was inspired by House of Wax and some other movies and TV shows and they say, I don't know, I heard this the other day that kids are I can't remember the number some astronomical like, have seen 200,000 violent acts on TV and movies by the time they're 15 or some something crazy. Like, I'm probably saying that statistic wrong, but I mean, does that play a part? What is there something that we I mean, at the same time, I I love watching action movies and horror movies, and I don't I don't want to kill anybody. So why does it affect some people differently?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 58:33

Right? And me too. I grew up on all that stuff. And I'm not gonna say I'm okay. But when I write,

Chuck Shute: 58:41

well, you haven't killed anybody that we know of. If you did, you'd know how to hide it. So

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 58:47

it's all about the developmental trajectory. What is hitting any given person at any given time in their development? What, what's their physiology Kip? kinkel, for example, was a scrawny kid, who was unathletic. All his parents were athletic. His sister was a high achiever and gregarious and popular and athletic and he couldn't match up with any of that stuff. They had so much going against him. And what made him feel powerful was knowledge of explosives. Now he could have stopped with that it could have left that that's a fantasy. made him feel good. But he He then got himself into trouble and his father was calling up a military school and that and that's it. I got I gotta do something and he shot his father. He got the gun and ammunition that incident never happened. Perhaps he never would have done anything.

Chuck Shute: 59:45

Yeah, or why couldn't you know Oh, you really like explosives like he could have gone into demolition

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 59:50

right? That's what he told his parents he wanted to do. And he could have learned a lot that incident that's what I'm trying to say. And then not blaming the Father by I'm trying to say is given the lead up to, and that it wasn't snapping, it was a developmental process such that a certain thing happened at a certain time that scared him. And he reacted strongly. And once having killed the father had to kill the mother and then put his school shooting plan into place, which he had gotten from watching news of other school shootings. So it's about what it is about what they're exposed to, to some extent, but how they absorb it, how they perceive it, how they perceive their own life story, you know, you'll take three siblings and have, you know, all the same exposures to the family environment, but different perceptions. Yeah. And why feel resentful, one might feel privileged, one might be indifferent, you're not going to be able to control a certain of those factors. And so that makes it hard. There is no cookie cutter approach to this, it makes it difficult. And if somebody is, in fact, at risk for potential future violence at that age, you're going to need to call on family counselors. I mean, we could we could take the case of the kid in Michigan, who who did this school shootings after his parents supplied the gun. And do you remember this case is the one in Michigan or so many. Now I can't use the one in Michigan, I can't remember, I can't think of the name of the school district. But they had a team in place for this purpose. And they left them out. When the parents were called in and told your son is drawing these violent images. We're nervous about him, you need to take him out and get him some counseling. And they refused to do it. And turned out they had given him the gun that he used as a gift, they had made fun of the concerns the school district had been they took off, they ran after he was arrested, they ran. And they're now they own this first case the parents had been prosecuted to wow, because they were directly complicit first in supplying a weapons second in not not giving him. Apparently there was some neglect. I'm not sure about that. But not taking him out of school. And but the school was complicit in not using their team of people who are trained in these red flag behaviors, that team was left out of the equation. So that's it. And I use that case in my class, because what an interesting study of multiple factors that go into these incidents, and that can, in a way never had a chance he was looking for help. And no resources were there for him, even though they were available. Yeah, that's so that's a problem. That's why could that have even ever happened? It did.

Chuck Shute: 1:02:59

So it sounds like what you're saying is if people are trained, and if more and more aware, there are red flags for majority of these things,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:03:06

for this for these kinds of school shooter, young young ones, and for the mass murderers. That is not the same as the serial killers serial killer, although there will there will in some cases be red flags. And if they are anger motivated, rather than sexually motivated, they will already have anger, they will already have had domestic abuse, they will already have had incidents in their background that show their anger, and it's out of control. And that anger then emerges as murder. We do have anger compelled serial killers, the ones that are sexually compelled, though, have already learned how to keep their sexual perversions under the shield so people don't really see because because it's unacceptable. So people don't see what they're doing. And so they've already learned many habits of secrecy, in order for people not to understand what's going on with them, if they're good at it, which they're not all good at it. If they're good at it, people are not going to see behaviors, but if they're not very good at it, they'll be things like, you know, they heard the family pet or cut off its tail or hang it in a tree or something or they you know, left pornography around or, you know, there are things but any of those things are easy to reinterpret in a benign way. Oh, that's that's just a phase. Is that is that that's what serves the family unit.

Chuck Shute: 1:04:38

Is that though is there people that harm animals as kids that don't go on to be serial killers because they know that's the big

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:04:44

the majority majority? majority don't? Okay, correct. Every time I see that, oh, that gives a budding serial killer is like no they're not.

Chuck Shute: 1:04:56

Okay. So, do not it is a jump but most of lot of serial killers did harm animals and

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:05:02

not all did not all. Yeah, so it's hard to make that a necessary or sufficient condition.

Chuck Shute: 1:05:10

Right? There's no perfect formula for any of this stuff.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:05:12

There is none. There's no profile of a serial killer, as the FBI says repeatedly stop trying to make there be is no blueprint now against which to measure people to see, are they or aren't they? We don't have that.

Chuck Shute: 1:05:25

No. It is interesting to study though and to look at as, as, as you know, this is your life's work. It's, it's fascinating. Hopefully, there's nothing wrong with me that I'm so interested in it because it's just so fascinating.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:05:39

I mean, it's fascinating, because it's a it's an aspect of the human mind that is difficult to understand, how do they develop in this way? And why did they want to stay this way? And especially because it could, it can lose them everything that they have, if they're older, and they have wife and family like the Golden State killer, and Dennis Rader and a few others that can name Why did they put all that at risk? Well, because it's really

Chuck Shute: 1:06:10

hot. The urge is so great. It supersedes the fear of going to jail for the rest of your life.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:06:17

Is that just The urge is the experience it's so raw, it's so they talk about it as being this this is the life force right here. And in fact, you if you read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, that that phrasing is in that book, but from the 19th century, when I'm Mr. Hyde, that is when things are exaggerated, heightened my senses and feel so powerful. I feel like nothing can stop me. That's heady. That's addicting.

Chuck Shute: 1:06:48

Scary stuff. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I always end each episode with a charity. And you have you have three you had the so tell me what the Cold Case Foundation

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:07:00

that is an organized effort by a number of experts who work on cold cases to try to solve them and work on John and Jane Doe cases that might not even have names. So they want to try first of all to identify them and give them their name. And then and then if they died by murder to identify the person who did it.

Chuck Shute: 1:07:25

Okay, so that one is one and then women for decels. They fund student projects.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:07:30

Yeah, that's at my university women for DeSales. Money not not one bit goes to any administrative fees. Every single donation goes to support student projects and student travel, so that they can maybe take a trip where they build a house in some other country for people who can't who don't have any means. Or they learn a skill or that you know, something. So everything that through this particular organization goes directly to support students.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:01

Okay, and then the Bethlehem Mounted Police, the Bethel amount of

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:08:05

police I used to take care of the horses love that.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:10

You still have time to take care of horses.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:08:13

I used it I spent four years doing that and then help them by with fundraising. I helped put together calendars and things that could sell so that's that's another one that I support.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:24

Okay, and then I wanted to before we it's not a charity but I did want to pitch your show that you are you still doing the Murder House flip the

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:08:32

second season. In this we have six houses including the Jodi Arias house. Oh, that's

Chuck Shute: 1:08:40

an that's an Arizona that's big in Arizona.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:08:44

Yeah. And and the house had not been thoroughly redone before. So we we went in and our crew, our designers redesign the spot where Travis was brutally slaughtered and dragged to the shower and none of that had been renovated before.

Chuck Shute: 1:09:03

So how much do you got it you just turn that into a completely different room? Or do you just Yeah, okay. It's

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:09:10

it's always the murder site. The idea of Murder House flip is a murder occurred in a house or yard. It's because because one time we did a yard where seven bodies had been had been brought buried, and they didn't really want to change the house, but they did want you know, a better yard and they got one. So we we will go into the murder area, which has an aura of creepiness, it makes them avoid the place or makes the house depressing. And we'll completely redo that area and also often give them more landscaping or a great backyard or they get more than just a makeover of the murder spot. But that certainly is there was one that had a bathroom the blue Murder House had a bathroom where the man had dismembered his wife And he was caught cooking or parts on the stove. So we got, we got several areas of the house here that need attention. But also we painted the outside. So it wasn't the blue murder house anymore. And it was became a sweet seaside cottage white cottage that didn't look anything like the blue Murder House.

Chuck Shute: 1:10:19

So who's buying these houses? Is that people that kind of get off on that there was a murder there? Or is it they get a discount? So it's cheaper. So it's cheaper?

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:10:27

Yeah, the whole idea of the show was these are stigmatized properties. And so they're much lower in value than they should be because of murder happened there. But it's not the houses fault. Yeah. And that that value can be restored by healing the murder spot. And that you

Chuck Shute: 1:10:46

have you've written books on paranormal and ghosts.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:10:50

Yeah, so we had we had two paranormal incidents in these

Chuck Shute: 1:10:54

houses. Oh, really, is that,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:10:57

in fact, in fact, to have this murder stories that people told us they had experienced ghostly activity around the murder site?

Chuck Shute: 1:11:05

So you think the remodeling changes that? Do they do bring in a priest or something to do

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:11:12

saging? Yeah. In fact, our original pitch was stage sage sell. But it turned out we weren't gonna go buy these houses and flipped them. We were going to make them over. Okay. So they sometimes the owner buys it and finds out there was a murder in it. Yeah, you spy because it's a great price. So and then they find out oh, my God,

Chuck Shute: 1:11:37

this is what I have to disclose that right, I think

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:11:39

up to three years and after that, no. Oh, really? Yeah. So that's how people buy these houses without knowing

Chuck Shute: 1:11:47

what channels it's gonna be on.

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:11:49

It's on the Roku network. The streaming service for roku. If you have a Roku device, you have a Roku. And it's an it's one of the Roku originals.

Chuck Shute: 1:11:59

Awesome. Well, very cool. You got a lot of stuff to sell there shows books, all sorts of stuff. So you have to come back. Maybe I'll read another one of your books and we can talk for another hour. All right. Thank you so much, Catherine,

Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 1:12:11

for having me.

Chuck Shute: 1:12:13

Thank you again to Dr. Catherine grandslam. Fascinating stuff. Again. She has a lot of books you can read like 70 the BTK one is very interesting and very descriptive. The show on a&e That's based on that is also very good. And I want to check out that Murder House flip show. You can follow Catherine on social media or buy her books, watch some of her TV appearances or donate to the charity she mentioned. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out some of my other interviews, like the one with Thomas Hargrove, and the murder Accountability Project, or the episode I just did with Kerry Spencer about sex trafficking. And make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to that you'll be able to catch new episodes. Thanks for listening. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.