Tiffany

Tiffany is a singer, songwriter, actress & former teen icon. Her 1987 cover “I Think We’re Alone Now” knocked Michael Jackson off the #1 spot on the charts. She has a new album coming out called “Shadows” that features members of L.A. Guns. We discuss the new album, her old manager/producer George Tobin, her Behind the Music episode, her thoughts on Britney Spears and more!

00:00 - Intro
00:53 - Current Band, Tour & Record
02:01 - Inspiration Behind New Album
03:33 - "Bed of Nails" Song & Backstory
07:57 - Growing Up Musically
09:28 - "I Like the Rain" Single & Struggling
12:58 - Tenacity, Resiliency & Dad's Spirit
16:21 - First Time Singing & Early Career
21:45 - Manger George Tobin & Writing Songs
24:30 - "Color of Silence" Album & Breakout
25:15 - Behind the Music & Music Business
27:47 - Britney Spears
29:38 - Children's Miracle Network & Jackets
31:15 - Outro

Tiffany website:
https://tiffanytunes.com/

Children's Miracle Network website:
https://childrensmiraclenetworkhospitals.org/

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com/

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:00

Well, this was a bit surreal. I'm interviewing Popstar Tiffany, and who didn't know and love those songs, she had some hits and two number one songs actually knocked Michael Jackson off the charts with her cover of I think we're alone now. And no, she doesn't get sick of that song. I've heard her say that in numerous interviews. And her history as a pop star will always be there, of course, but she's back with a new album shadows. And I think people really like it. I really liked the songs. She sounds kind of like Ann Wilson meets Kelly Clarkson. Now she's obviously grown up and her songs reflect that, and the new elements about her journey in life. And she really opens herself up on the album. And in this interview, check it out. So you have a new album out. But tell me first about your current band, because I thought I heard you say that you had a couple members of La guns in your current band.

Tiffany: 1:02

I do. Yeah. Scott Coogan and Johnny Martin from LA guns, they're, they're out and about with me, we've taken a little break right now because the shadows tour actually starts in the beginning of the year. So we were out doing some shadows dates, I thought I was gonna put the record out, then, you know, the COVID stuff started happening again. So I pulled the record back again, it comes out November 25. Of this year. And then we're gonna plug around, you know, end of January, February and start doing all the fun going out and promoting the record. Meanwhile, I am doing videos and podcasting and getting the word out and sharpening up all the other stuff. And you know, basically working with the fans throughout the holidays, and all that anything we can do is to celebrate the music and get to know me and get to know the mindset of why I wrote the songs and what was going on in my life. So tell us a little bit of the backstory and then we're gonna go and rocket. I'm excited.

Chuck Shute: 1:58

Yeah, so tell me about the backstory. Because I think in the PR thing it says, What did it say there was something about a heartbreak, the heartbreak that nobody knows about. So what is that? What Tell me about that? What's the heartbreak that no one knows

Tiffany: 2:12

which one

Chuck Shute: 2:15

of your things said about the album, or was that just about the song shadows because there's a song shadows in the album shadows.

Tiffany: 2:21

So the album in its entirety is really about the shadow, the light and the dark, dark, you know, of our lives, the emotions of our lives. So it's a two sided album, especially the vinyl. And it has all my dramatic balance on their heartfelt songs, which is where you're gonna find the heartache. And a lot of those were derived from my personal experiences, getting a divorce, being with a new relationship, who's also getting a divorce, the complexity there, who's also my business partner, my producer, my everything, if you will, and you know, that's a new wild ride for me to be that in depth with somebody, it's working out great. But, you know, that's the other side of where we've achieved getting to there was like a wild ride, you know, it was a lot of makeups breakups, what's happening, you know, it's never easy to leave a, an old situation and, you know, breakups, even though you know, that's what's happening. still linger, the pain, all of that, and then to get into a relationship, where we're both going through it was, was was hard, you know, there's songs like bed of nails that came out of that, and that was really mostly about, you know, you I don't have it so easy. They don't say it's been a hard day, you know, it's been a lot of phone calls and yelling and screaming and emotional and baggage and all and, and, you know, I want you to feel that with me, I want you to, you know, comfort me, I want I want you know, and I think that's what Bed of Nails came out of, you know, which is a really dramatic ballot. It's kind of operatic if you will, it reminds me of like a meatloaf kind of song. It just grows and grows and we've got these beautiful violins on it. But the vocal I think I'm singing better than I've ever had in years. And that particular song I was really excited about doing the vocal was done at Rock field and Wales. And with that, it was like I was dinnertime. I had made this beautiful pot roast for the band. I always cook for the band, and I have less food with Tiffany. I'm a chef and I also am a foodie. And I've cooked on a cooking club. We got to cook books coming out. So that's behind the scenes, but also that's my jam. The band goes there next door creating and I'm in here writing lyrics listening to, you know what they're creating, going in and out of the studio and I'm creating beautiful food. So at the end of the night, we're going to all get together we're going to have a great dinner But prior to that, I have to go in and do my vocal and show my lyrics show my stuff. And so Bed of Nails was one of those situations where the track is so amazing when you hear this, you know, again, the complexity, all the instrumentation on it, I mean, the production, like they really pulled it out my producer, Mark just did a great job on this song. And I, everyone was hungry. So you know, I went into like, go and do my vocal. And from the moment they turned, you know, my, my headphones on and getting me into the booth. And from the moment of go, I sang the song. And I don't know what happened, but I just switched into this space. And I had never seen the song before. This is a scratch vocal. So I'm just learning all the variables, if you will, and how to put all your twirls and where everything fits, if you will. But there was something so magical about it, I think it was the experience, the message, the the story, if you will, the backstory that I felt. So it was my life, if you will, that when I say this vocal, it's one pass through. And I mean, I just kept going to these places vocally and giving it hell, if you will. And I remember looking at everybody when I was finished, and they were all like, oh, okay, well, that was a pretty badass scratch vocal, I don't know if we can even recreate that tomorrow. And we did, we tried to go back into the studio the next morning, top in the morning, and it wasn't there. It was one of those things that it was just that moment. And I was so nervous to sing these leaned lyrics to, to mark to the band to you know, because they're pretty, they're pretty gritty, they're pretty raw, you know, pretty, they're pretty vulnerable, if you will, and then knowing that I have this massive, you know, track that was really going to require me to take it to the next level vocally. That that nervousness, you know, that adrenaline just kicked in. It was such a magical creating moment. And I think that's what musicians are really in it for. You know, sometimes we rise to those occasions. I know I do, which is not a good practice. But sometimes when it's a real shit show, you know, you don't make soundcheck you got stuck in traffic or something happens or, you know, you don't have the equipment you needed. A lot of those bad negative things end up becoming positive, because they push you a little bit. And you rise to those occasions. And sometimes those are the best shows. You're like, Well, that was a great show. I mean, there was nothing that set it up to be a great show, but we did it. So you know to have one of those studio moments was really cool. And I think you'll hear it on the album, the rest of the album, the light, if you will. It's kind of like pop punk. You know, fun, really, with modern production. I mean, we've got the lair guitars, the rock edge to it. But um, it definitely stems from the fun of 80s inspiration, if you will, if you like the Go Go's Ramones, blondie. This is kind of the tone of some of the uptempo songs with a Tiffany flair, of course. But you know, those are people that were, you know, inspirations to me. That's the music I do listen to. Those are the people that you know, I mean, that I that I do know now as an adult that I still don't Hey, girls, you know, it's great to know Belinda Carlisle, and to see her at different shows and to work with her. Because I've always been a fan. You know, but we've Tiffany from 15, where I was sat in the corner and didn't really have much in common with anybody to being an adult now talking shop as a mom as an entrepreneur as a business woman as the new climate of releasing records still touring, still doing our thing to you know, holistic healing. She's very much into Zen and Buddhism and stuff. So we, we talk shop, it's great. It's like, I feel this is cool. You know, I'm still giving it how here I am. 30 years on, and I'm living my best life now.

Chuck Shute: 9:17

Yeah, I love the new record. I was surprised how much I liked it. I was like, Oh, I really like the songs especially the more rockin ones like the first one. Hey, baby, and I like the rain. So tell me about like the rings. That's a single. I grew up in Seattle. I got sick of the rain. So I know there's like a metaphor thing there. Do you actually literally like the rain too, though? Or is it just more of a metaphor?

Tiffany: 9:38

I do like the rain. I do some of my best work when it's cloudy moody. Especially like right now the end of the year. I'm an October Baby. I really there's something about it is when I'm really the most creative. And that's solemn maybe because I'm an LA Girl. There was always sunshine. And I'm so fierce skin I could never be That's that I went the other way. But I think I'm an old soul to be honest with you. But yes, I have a cloudy day, I'm very reflective, there's something that happens to me in creative mode. That is, you know, I'm creative anytime, but I do notice it in the winter months more, but I like the rain, the single actually is really about owning your own chaos. I think I went through a patch of my life where I was not, you know, doing, making the best choices, if you will. Maybe finding myself a little bit, getting a little lost, wanting instant gratification on some things, and then going, Oh, that was really ugly. You know, finding yourself again, after divorce is finding yourself you know, in new climates, COVID didn't help. I think it took everybody in a different direction. You know, again, chaos and, and sadness and aloneness. And I wrote, I liked the rant prior to that, but it really honed in after COVID. A lot of my friends went into darker patches or developed, you know, small addiction problems of any kind, over eating, being lazy, you know, whatever was to kind of get them through over shopping. And then you know, it's kind of like, You're not helping yourself, but you're doing what you need to do to get by. And that runs its course. And sometimes that leads to more mess, if you will. And people are always, you know, telling you, you shouldn't do that you should do this. And you're just kind of like, Yeah, I'm not doing that right now. I'm doing me and I'm owning what this is. I'm loud and proud about my dysfunction, if you will, but you don't stay there. And that's kind of what I wrote it about. I wrote it about bad decisions. I wrote it about people talking shit, you know, not understanding and yeah, I'm not maybe at my best right now. But I'm still here. I don't know, if anybody who knows exactly what they're doing, you know, I've done I've done well, for a long time. Now, my life is changing. And I'll give me a little minute to make failures. You know, and unfortunately, as a celebrity, sometimes you're doing that, again, loud and proud out there in front of everybody. But, you know, some of those failures aren't always a bad thing. If you rein it in, you know, sometimes you have to go through the muck to really say, Okay, I've had that, you know, that's what you know, that's the end of me, or that's the depth of me, if you will, you know, I don't want to be that. But I had to do that. I had to know where my boundaries were, I had to know where my stumbling blocks are. And through that, if I can put that in my creation and music and write about those failures, write about how it felt to fail, write about, you know, a love gone bad. Write about this. That's my therapy. And that's kind of what I'm doing as a musician.

Chuck Shute: 12:57

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, like your story is there's so much tenacity. That's what I think I want to look at your history and just work from such a young age. Like, you know, I was watching the behind the music, and you talk about how you when you first start doing those small tours, there was like three people that showed up. How did you at an age of 15? How did you not go like cry and run offstage and never do it again? How did you just keep going? And no, because you know, you're looking forward, you know, as an adult, you can do that and look forward and go, Okay, I can get through this. But at 15 How did that not, like, you know, make you so sad to only see three people cheering for you.

Tiffany: 13:34

I did run off a stage a couple of times and cry more, more, because people will yell at me, a lot of the store owners were not enlightened that someone was going to set up and start, you know, pumping music out in front of their store. And in front of jewelry stores or you know, elite clothing boutiques, it doesn't work, you're like hindering their business. So I had a lot of people in my face yelling at me. And I would run off and cry and be like, but I would come right back. I think you're resilient. And I think the one thing I can say about myself as a person is I am resilient. You know, I keep taking a lot of hits. Or, you know, with anything, live music, all of it. And there's just something in me, I probably I really do think it's my dad, you know, my stepfather who I didn't get along with for many, many years. But he had that don't keep don't give up spirit. He was in the army. He was a, you know, tunnel runner. You know, his dad died when he was very young. He was the older brother of like six siblings. I mean, he basically went and found the church and the pastor at that time, who, you know, didn't have a wife or kids and said, My mom can't afford me. Do you think that somebody here could adopt me because I need a new family because I'm a drain to mine. And, you know, he was only 12 I think at the time, wow. And they did adopt him. You know, and And then, you know, he was like, Well, you're in the church, aren't you supposed to help people in need my mom can can support me, I'm trying to get cans off the side of the road for her to be able to she's a single mom, my dad died. So we've got mouths to feed. So, you know, there was, I never had an excuse with my father at all. And I think that was in the early days was hard on me. Like, I didn't get it. But all those years later, it's funny because I tap into his spirit I tap into, oh, well, you know, and you'd have your days where you're just like, I can't handle it, whatever. I'm just gonna go to bed or I'm just gonna watch endless amounts of YouTube or Netflix or whatever, and I'm just gonna solve them go into my hole. And then there's something about me that just pops out the next day and goes, nope, absolutely not. This is what we're doing this, you know, and everybody's like, are you crazy? Like you're going even further with the obstacle? Well, then that's the way it has to be. And I really do think that's my dad's spirit. I really do you know, which is he's, he's up in heaven now. And I'm sure he's still pushing me. But I think you have to have that tenaciousness. Definitely, I it's just ingrained in me

Chuck Shute: 16:10

Yeah, cuz I think you started singing it like to or something but so wasn't a here your father that I didn't this was not in the behind the music. But I thought I heard this I heard you talking about this an interview where the first time you sang was an affair. And he gave the band $50 to let you come sing on stage. I thought that was so cool.

Tiffany: 16:28

Did I wouldn't shut up really behind the scenes that showed my family nuts. I was constantly singing, and all day long. And you know, even in my younger days, when I was like six, seven, I was you know, had the whole costumes on my grandma would let me raid her. Her closet, as long as I put everything away. But I was always, you know, getting better throughout the day, like in the morning, I'd go to you know, get up and have like a little song in my head. And then I would be singing it through breakfast and go to school. And when I came back from school after homework, that was my time to like, work on myself, you know, and I go into like, the music room. My grandmother had a music room. Although no one was a musician, my family. It's just where they collected records. And I was allowed to play with the records, mostly Fats Domino and Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis and Patsy Cline at that time, that I would just go into that room and listen and listen and listen and listen, and make up my own songs as well play with my grandma's clothes. And so from probably about three till probably about 730, you have the evolution of Tiffany getting better and better and better and better. But of course, that's annoying to everybody, because she keeps coming back with more costumes and more inches louder. And like, it's like, Please shut up. And I really did torture my family. And you know, when my mom met my stepfather, he saw this in me, and I was always singing and I was always performing. And I was always, you know, listening to music and just ingrained in it. And he said, Is this what you really want to do? Because you're not shy. And I was like, I'd love to really be a singer. That was Yeah. And he kind of, you know, there was some friends of his that were lightly in the music industry. And they heard me sing, and they were like, holy shit, her voice. She sounds like she's 30. She's nine. Like, I don't know what to do with that. But she's a good singer, like your daughter really can sing. And they encouraged my dad to get a demo together all those different things. And I started working with country bands at the time going to clubs and nightclubs, and you know, VFW clubs and all of that. And the first time that my dad tried, it was at the fair, the alcohol fair, he had given the band $50 and said, Look, my daughter wants to sing. But I really want to know in a big crowd unprepared, the show get up and do this. Or if this is more around family, friends, you know, with some guidance and preparation, and I was out there watching the band and they said we have a young girl out there. New singer. Her name is Tiffany Renee, which is my real name Tiffany Renee Darwish. That's what I was born with. And we'd like to welcome her up to the stage and I didn't miss a beat. I was like, yeah, they're on they're like, What song do you know? And I'm like, Well, I mean, I didn't have a setlist I didn't know anything about keys song because I didn't play an instrument. I was like, Delta Dawn and they're like, what key I'm like the key and the rap played a key and I was like, that's good enough, you know, and I don't think they even knew the actual, like, you know, verse chorus, there wasn't even really in the right design, but I made it happen. I worked off the bat I started instantly looking at people I didn't have any monitor nothing. But it didn't stop me. I was like, This is great. So, my dad was like, okay, all right, she rose to that occasion, and he just kept putting me in that kind of climate. And, you know, back then it was word of mouth. And hanging out with oxen, actually was one of the first celebrities or entertainers or successful person that took a serious and, you know, pointed us into their direction of go to Nashville, and start doing more demos at that time. Like I said, I want to do country music. And I came to Nashville many times between nine and 12, recorded many demos work with a lot of different managers opened up for a lot of people like Georgia Jones, Mickey, Mickey, I was at Mickey, what's his name? I can't remember his name anymore. That's terrible. But Johnny Lee, gosh, on and on, I worked with Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis for you know, and I, again, was raised listening to the record. So that was awesome. And getting that experience. And my dad was like, Okay, this is what she's definitely born to do. And, you know, got hard on my family, though, because my dad went his own business. And it you know, as you know, with any career, it's a full time thinking. And, you know, that kind of caused a lot of problems in my mom and dad's relationship. Because now my dad is taking all his weekends, helping me going out, my mom is pregnant, staying at home. And it's not a great thing for their relationship. So I learned, you know, you're all in and the people around you are all in and you know, the highs and lows even done as a young entertainer before I was successful, what it means to be truly committed. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 21:43

well, then you work with this manager, George Tobin. I don't know what to think of this guy. This guy had tenacity, but he didn't really have tact, right. I mean, like, the first time you wrote lyrics, he insulted your lyrics. And so was it hard to bounce back from that, like his? Because the first time you wrote them, then he insults them, then it makes you not want to do that again. So how long did you wait until you try it again to write lyrics?

Tiffany: 22:07

No, not long. I mean, I am I'm very much that person. I do keep taking hits, they hurt. And and somehow I get pissed off and come back better. I don't know. That's my aim. That's what I hope to. You know, that's just my MO, if you will, I think George, you know, yeah, he just shit all over my first time showing him lyrics. He was like, oh, that sounds like this. And that sounds like that will tell because I'm not you know, I'm not a professional, really lyricist. I don't know shit about writing songs. But I have an idea. And of course, it's sounds like Tina Marie or Stevie Nicks, or somebody because that's who I'm inspired by. But, you know, can you work with any of that. And instead, I just, I kind of got shot down in flames. And I remember thinking, okay, he's just not the right person to show that to, which is an obstacle when that means you're a producer, and your vehicle for getting music out. But what that did for me is I started working with band members, I started working with people who were more pliable songwriters, who came to the studio to produce, you know, to write for the album for me. But when you have a lot of off time, I would tell them about my ideas. And I found a whole set of people that were comforting to me, that said, Oh, keep on going. You know, here with this, you always want to like dive a little bit you want to do this, you want to do that there's a structure, there's that that's a great word. But you know, what are other words, whatever it was, and that's kind of how I became a songwriter. And even that was on the down low for many, many years. Until again, I started working with my bandmates and putting my own money into my music, doing my own demos as a songwriter pitching my own stuff as a songwriter getting you know, songwriting publishing deal. Like I didn't know anything about that, but it just started to happen because I learned through not actually even big, structured corporate, MCA managers, those vehicles I learned from musicians trying to make it who are themselves were tenacious and just firing off of everything they had i I'm better actually in that environment for some reason. That really inspires me.

Chuck Shute: 24:27

Yeah, well, and you just kept getting better I think. Behind the Music they talked about that one album you did in 2000. That was got rave reviews from billboard they compared it to Atlantis more sets album, which is really good, and it is really good.

Tiffany: 24:40

Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that was a turn of a page for me. You know, when I did color of silence, because it really was me as a songwriter, showing you know, that I can write songs and that I'm a lighter and then I am a real musician, and that I'm capable. of doing things outside of just the pop realm that I'm not manufactured. I am a real singer, I've got the chops. And you know and who I am. So color sounds really gave me a break. I love behind the music because I think behind the music program, you know, that was VH. One really validated me as a person, because I would watch those programs and I go, Oh, you're supposed to be like, you're supposed to have the right to come back then the right in the fall to come back. I mean, this is a lifelong thing. And it really spoke to me, I think it was one with Peter Frampton on there who I of course, love. I've always loved him. It was my cousins, my cousins favorite artists. So he's been in my life and an influence on me as a little kid. And you know, since then I've met him and he's lovely. But on this particular episode, he was saying, you know, here I am selling out venues and doing things and he was quite young. And then all of a sudden, they're done with you. You haven't done anything wrong, you haven't lost your talent. You know, you haven't blown chunks and not show up to your shows your voice hasn't changed. You know, you don't instantly forget how to write songs or be creative, or it was just, he was, you know, kind of thrown away from it. Because it was like, well, you found your time. But that's the industry they make you. Then they get tired of making you and then they got to dissect you and bring you back down. It's the praise and the rejection. That's the way it is. But for an artist, especially for somebody who's young, you feel like you've committed a crime. You're like, what did I do wrong? And while I saw him say that I went, That's how I feel. What did I do wrong? Why am I apologizing for being 15 getting signed, being a little girl from Norwalk, having the odds of making it getting signed? Having a number one record number one singles, selling millions of albums touring the world? What is that about that? Why do we why now is everyone making me feel like shit? Like I'm not accomplishing to the next level? Or that's it? You were a team store. So we're done with you now. I don't believe in that philosophy. So it was really that validation. I went, Oh, a professional guy, like a real, you know, dude, if you will, he felt that way. Like that. So validated my feelings. This is the way it's supposed to be. But look what he did. He kept going. Yeah, he got better. He found his tribe. He found his people. And he's enjoying what he's doing. Ah, that's the key to success. So it just really spoke to me.

Chuck Shute: 27:47

Yeah. Do you know do you look at like, like Britney Spears? What do you think of her? Because you're a fellow pop star? Do you worry about her? Like, what? Do you have any advice for her? What's your take on on what's going on with her? Well, I

Tiffany: 27:59

don't really know what's going on with Brittany. I, you know, I think she's adorable. I've met her a couple of times. She's always been wonderful and nice. You know, I mean, obviously, you know, she's got a career and a platform and people are rooting for her. You know, I just mostly want her to be happy. You know, that's if she's happy, then, you know, everybody talks a lot about our mental health and stuff. And, and I hope mostly, that she does have somebody around her that is supporting her. And it if there is a problem getting the need and the help that she wants, there's nothing to be ashamed of, you know, about that stuff. You know, I know that, you know, it's weird, because we're in the same circle of fans and friends and stuff. And she comes up quite a bit about did you see what she's done? You know, I mean, she's living her life. And you really don't have much to say about stuff that you don't know, behind the scenes, as long as she's safe, and and seems to be happy. And I really don't think right now she's at a risk factor. I think, you know, we're seeing her she's engaging with us. She's showing us what she wants to show. And, you know, that's what she's wanting to do. So, you know, I mean, for me, I follow her on Instagram, and she makes me dizzy with the toilet and she makes me dizzy. But I love it, you know, because it's classic journey. So I enjoy actually watching her I know I wish her the best. I think you know she's she's a great person and I think she has a really big heart. That's good. Anything.

Chuck Shute: 29:36

Yeah, very cool. Well, I know you gotta get going my last thing I was just in promoting a charity is their charity that's near and dear to your heart.

Tiffany: 29:42

Yes, Children's Miracle Network everybody that is my child charity. I've been supporting them for about nine years now. And you can also go to radical reds, Instagram because I paint jackets to support them. So one at a time Jean and leather jackets crafted by me So, we're gonna start again here for the holidays. But I'm actually going to be working with celebrities as well to make some jackets to help support Children's Miracle Network. So I've been working with the families, the doctors, everything, the more that I've gotten involved with this charity, and then realizing that, you know, if you're diagnosed with something wrong with the baby, and you know, at birth or during the pregnancy, how much they continue to work with those families, and their needs as time goes on. And that is really the goal every year that they still support and celebrate their child growing another year. That's amazing. But there are different medical needs different adjustments. I mean, right now, I'm got a really great friend, her name's bland and out there, and she's going into her teenage years. So you know, she's needing a wrap to go into the new car, because the family had to get a new car. So now they have to fit that down out with the rat, which is quite expensive. These are the things that we do behind the scenes to continue to help to meet the needs of these families.

Chuck Shute: 31:05

Very cool. Well, thank you so much. So inspirational. All that you do. I love the new record too. Great job on that. So I'll let you get to your next interview. Thank you so much, Tiffany.

Tiffany: 31:13

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Chuck Shute: 31:15

All right, bye bye. Well, again, there are definitely those surreal moments of doing the show. And this was just one of them. So if I stumbled a bit, it's because I'm distracted. I'm just thinking This is Tiffany. I'm talking to her. It's very weird. But seriously, her new album is good stuff. Her music has matured, which makes sense. Check it out, and make sure to support our guests and the show with likes, shares and comments on YouTube and social media. And also make sure you subscribe to the show. Wherever you watch her listen. Thank you for your support. Have a great day and shoot for the moon.