Greg Graffin (Bad Religion)

Greg Graffin is a musician, author and professor of evolutionary biology.  He is best known for being the singer of Bad Religion, a punk rock band he started in 1980 at age 15. His latest book “Punk Paradox” is a historical memoir and cultural criticism of punk rock’s evolution. We discuss some of the topics of the book including his parents divorce, staying off drugs, hair metal, selling out and his final conclusion of what he’s learned looking back on his life.

00:00 - Intro
01:02 - Punk Paradox Book Title
04:02 - Memories & Reflecting in Book
05:16 - Kid With Wooden Leg
06:43 - Parents Divorce
08:40 - Gravitating Towards Music
09:55 - Simon & Garfunkel
12:42 - Kids Finding Their Path
16:06 - Staying Off Drugs
18:08 - Impersonations & Tom Snyder
20:32 - Hair Metal & Style
22:05 - Selling Out
23:50 - Conclusion of the Book
26:00 - Local Food Bank
27:10 - Outro

Bad Religion website:
https://badreligion.com/

Find Your Local Food Bank
https://www.feedingamerica.org/find-your-local-foodbank

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com/

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:00

Very excited to have Greg Graf in singer Bad Religion, college professor of evolutionary biology and author of his new book punk paradox. This book chronicles his life from birth to growing up in Wisconsin to moving to LA, to forming Bad Religion getting his PhD headlining the Vans Warped Tour and everything in between. So if you contrast this with Motley crews, the dirt, this is the opposite. This is a guy who never drank or did drugs. And in the book, he mentioned, someone orders a maker's mark with Coke, and he thought it was a made up drink. So while the dirt was really interesting, I think this book is a little bit more relatable for people. And I thought it was a really interesting read, and a story about perseverance. And I only get 30 minutes with them. So I tried to get as much wisdom from Greg as I could enjoy. The book punk paradox, and it's called punk paradox, because punk is about anarchy and fucking shit up. But that's not really how your life was, as you reflected back, correct?

Greg Graffin: 1:12

Yeah, I mean, the, you know, I had a couple of years to think about it. While COVID was raging, I sat around and reflected on my life. I think a lot of people did, man, I noticed it's like memoir season right now, because it's a lot of people, you know, spent that time, especially entertainers, who are usually very active. You know, we had two summers of inactivity, and many months between them, where I still felt like being productive. So as I reflected more, though, on my life, and punk rock, you know, I found many puzzles, and many things that weren't that easy to explain. And it wasn't really a scientific exercise. I wanted to tell a story, you know, a story about my journey from the Midwest to California. And, you know, the years before Bad Religion and how that helped to shape my toolkit in terms of the experiences and these skills, if you want to call them skills, the teenager that I brought to the band, and, you know, the, the paradoxes are numerous. It's like the, as you said, you know, Punk is characterized and stereotype, stereotype. I shouldn't say stereotyped as having these crazy nihilistic tendencies, and these, you know, the glorification of fucking shit up. And, you know, anarchy and no rules. But that isn't exactly the experience that I had. And yet, I think the stereotype is sometimes missing the point of what made punk great, at least for me, I gravitated towards the music, and you know, it, you rarely see treatments of the history of punk, that celebrate the great songs and the great songwriting. And, you know, I found some consistency in my academic upbringing, and kind of the academic pursuit of songwriting. So it's really a memoir from memory. It's not a memoir from research, I didn't go and spend a lot of time researching. But because of my analytic brain, it is a fairly, internally couldn't coherent analysis of not only my own life, but also sort of the early burgeoning of punks punk rock in Southern Cal.

Chuck Shute: 4:01

Yeah, so what did it feel like to write this book and share something so personal did? Did you worry about what other people might think? Like maybe some of the people that you talked about in the book, like, would they get mad for you mentioning them?

Greg Graffin: 4:14

My and I was definitely intentional. When I wrote it, I did not set out to hurt anyone's feelings. And so if someone's feelings are hurt, they can simply blame my memory. And, you know, I take I, it's funny, because you could say, oh, I take full responsibility for my memory. But everyone who knows anything, knows that memory is flawed. You know, memory is not perfect. And that's why, you know, sure it came from my own brain cells. But I really was intending to write an interesting and lively story and to do that I use the resource of my remembrance. And because of that, you have to anyone who writes from memory, you have to read the words on the page and recognize that memory is, is oftentimes flawed.

Chuck Shute: 5:16

Yeah, for sure. Well, it's funny. It's early in the book. And I'm just getting to know you. I mean, obviously, I know the band and I fan of your music. But I don't know you haven't seen a lot of interviews with you. And so I'm reading the book. And right off the bat, you're talking about this kid with a wooden leg? And I'm going is this is this for real? Is he like joking around? Is this part of like, the punk humor or something? And it was like, No, this was real. You had a friend who had a wooden leg. Now why couldn't he have like a plastic or titanium? Like, that just seems really, is that a common thing at the time that people had prosthetic? limbs would be wood? limbs?

Greg Graffin: 5:50

I think so. Yeah. And I mean, the interesting thing about that story, is that that kid who we knew, when we were only in first grade, or, you know, very young kids, he went on also to move to Southern California, and became notorious in the punk scene. You know, they called him pegleg. Andre. But, you know, we didn't see him like that. We just saw him as this kid, you know, from our neighborhood, who he played with. And, you know, he had a wooden leg was very common as a prosthetic back then they didn't. They didn't have the kinds of materials that they use today. And he was just a rambunctious little kid that we played with. That's

Chuck Shute: 6:40

cool. Well, the other thing that's really early on again, in the book is you talk about how your parents got divorced. Now, I've had some experience with this working with kids that divorce. And it sounds like you were pretty devastated. Do you think that's kind of like an underrated problem in America right now that no one really talks about how divorce affects kids? Because it seems like it's something that we don't really mention is one of the major problems, but I saw it as a big thing that affects a lot of kids.

Greg Graffin: 7:08

Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought it up. Because it's less important. As an experiential thing for me, and more important that I used it as a device in the book, to try to relate to people, because it is so common, you know, divorce is so common that most people, they don't dwell on it, because they just, you know, they don't. If something's that common, it must not be that traumatic, right? Well, I mean, and you say, Well, I was traumatized by Well, I think all kids are traumatized by it. And the difference is that if you really want to seek to understand your own journey in life, and you just gloss over something like divorce, you're not really giving yourself a fair treatment. And so yeah, you know, I wouldn't say that it traumatized me to the point of incapacity. But it certainly determined more importantly, it determined my emotional state in many ways, and it determined the course of our family. And they're in you know, lies the, the storytelling aspect of it. So by ignoring that, you you've really shortchange your own personal journey. Right? Well,

Chuck Shute: 8:38

and that's a big part of your journey. Because this is so interesting. To me. It's like what you did is you gravitated towards music, because you felt like that was a way to please both your parents because both your parents loved music, even though it was different styles of music.

Greg Graffin: 8:52

Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying again, in storytelling, you try to be honest about what you remember. And, you know, that was not I have been to psychotherapy in my life, but not about divorce. It was, you know, I guess it's, it's something that it does seem like a therapeutic exercise to, to try to come to terms with why did I gravitate towards something like music? But the truth is, yeah, it was always a an important element in an academic household. And it was something that pleased both my dad the professor and my mom, the Dean of learning skills, so it was definitely a it explains very nicely how I became so interested in music.

Chuck Shute: 9:47

Yeah, and I liked how you had the balance like your dad was like Johnny Cash and Elvis and your mom was like Stevie Wonder and blood, sweat and tears, but Simon and Garfunkel balance and interestingly, you love Simon and Garfunkel? What are your thoughts on what Garfunkel added to the group because I think a lot of people don't know he was more just like the background singer. And he didn't even I don't think he even wrote many or any of the songs. I know he sang lead on Bridge Over Troubled Water. But we'll talk about his importance as a background singer because I think that would later be a big part of Bad Religion is the background, the harmonizing vocals, that was a huge part of your band.

Greg Graffin: 10:21

Yeah, and of course, when I was first introduced a bridge over troubled waters, I was like in second grade and third grade going through this divorce. And that song, or that album has a lot of lonely tunes on it. I think even though I didn't fully comprehend the lyrics, they really spoke to me and made me feel comforted because that was music playing in both households. And of course, I mean, I learned to sing to some of those songs. And I could even sing the harmony parts, but I didn't really at that age analyze what what good was Art Garfunkel? You're just you're hearing this Sonic? You know, this Sonic. So you know, the sound was tranquil to me. And it was two voices harmonizing. So it made me comforted. And looking back on it, those albums. And those recordings are classic, you know, later in life, I can analyze what you asked me about, like, what was his value? And of course, those albums, like all albums, they're snapshots in time. And they're incredibly impossible to I shouldn't say they're incredibly difficult to, to judge how it might have been it because, you know, from this perspective, you look at it as perfect. It's a snapshot of a moment in time. And would they have been so popular without the harmonies? I don't know. Yeah, and I think they were partners, obviously. And that's probably that transcends the partnership itself transcends the the importance of each individual. So it's the truly the sum was greater than the parts. Absolutely. Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 12:17

It just reminds me like later when you talk about the was a breath that left that because he did the background vocals, right. And then, so that was like, tough. He had Brian come in, but he had to learn how to do background vocals. So that is kind of an underrated part of bands. I feel like,

Greg Graffin: 12:31

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, harmony is, like you said, part of what makes bad religion? Unique. So yeah.

Chuck Shute: 12:42

Absolutely. And then so you talk about when you're a teenager, you know, you just kind of have you felt maybe a little bit lost, I think the quote, as you say, in the book, having no excuse for laziness, I must have seen, like, allows to the academics and adults in my mom's circles, I didn't really care. But I did feel like I had to prove myself as worthy in some way. So obviously, you eventually find your way. And you know, you're fronting a band, you become a college professor. So do you what is your advice to people at that stage? Because that's again, I used to work with teenagers. And a lot of them go through that where they just are kind of lost? How do you what advice you have to teenagers to finding their way or what advice you have to parents to help their kids find their way? Because I feel like that's an important part of the world right now is helping kids find their path.

Greg Graffin: 13:30

Yeah, I think my advice would be better to parents than kids, because parents often are, too, they impose their will on their kids and the kid. So the kid is like, going to ask you like, what should I do while you, you know, to, to be really, to make it easy. So you got to you have to do what they want you to do. Because breaking away from that the rebellion is going to is going to impose all kinds of problems in itself. So you're either restricted by your parents demands, or you're restricted by the rebellion. I mean, so. So the, the real problem is the parents who are imposing their will on the kids. And I was very fortunate in that both them see, that's what I try. And I'm glad you brought it up. Because what comes through in the narrative is that this, I call it my family was, I refer to it as graphing you. It was like a big university. You know, it was like, they there was definitely a high expectation, but it was not forced or thrust upon us. And that gave us students that graph in you the ability to find our own way. So you got to it's hard for parents nowadays, you got to relax your expectations. But it but it's so important. because then the kids will feel it incumbent upon themselves to, you know, to meet the standards that has been that has been established in the household. And the, in our case, you know, my brother, as I said, He could always get the good grades. And he was always, you know, the the math whiz. But I was pretty lazy academically, and I didn't feel like I could achieve those goals. But, but you know what, I was pretty good in sports, and I love to play play ball. And I was good at music. And those things gave me satisfaction, even though there was no viable way of like turning it into a career. And so I was because of probably the lack of the lack of oversight, if you will, in the household. I was allowed to meet up eventually with these other slackers called Bad Religion. Yeah. But then together, we were pretty industrious. Yeah. But

Chuck Shute: 16:06

then you stayed away from drugs at a young age. And you just you discuss that more in the book. Obviously, people need to get the book. We're just touching some of the topics or but what do you think the answer for that is? i How do we keep kids off drugs? Because you never got mixed up in that stuff? As long as your band went on? I mean, we have like a huge fentanyl issue in Arizona. I mean, I don't know what the answer to that is like, but for you, you just never even seemed curious about it.

Greg Graffin: 16:32

Yeah, you're talking to someone who's really uh, you know, when I was young, I didn't think I was such an outlier. But now, a little later in life, I realized that I realized that it's pretty incredible that I was surrounded by heart hard drugs. And I just, there's something in me that just never wanted to experiment with them. And I've gone on record before as saying, I think I was afraid of them. Because I was afraid of what they might do to me. You know, I would lose control of my intellect, or I would, you know, I had, I had so few accolades as an intellectual anyways, I didn't want to lose what I had achieved. I don't know what it was. But it's a very rare thing. And I I also know, just from my study of biology, that a lot of those cravings and desires are genetic there. It's well established that there's a material basis for a lot of alcoholism and a lot of drug addiction. And it comes down hereditary lines. And maybe I just avoided that by not getting the the gene for it. Yeah, certainly. My parents were not. They didn't drink. There wasn't alcohol around the house. I think that helped. But I just wasn't curious in any way. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 18:07

it worked out for you. Now, you also talk about when you put the band together, there was a lot of joking around and you would do impersonations, like Tom Schneider, can I hear like an impersonation either past one, or is there any more contemporary impersonation that you still do? You're

Greg Graffin: 18:22

asking, man, you're asking for like, impersonations of guys on television. From 40 years ago. I remember Tom Schneider, I could do anything and people would still not know what the hell I'm talking about. But Tom Snyder was great, but he was a fellow Wisconsinite. And he had a he had a late night talk show, you know, after Johnny Carson. So he was the you're the equivalent of The Late Late Show, right? Probably. Who's ever doing that? Now? I don't even know. I mean, you know, Colbert comes on late, right? But those guys have have the equivalent time slot of what Tom Snyder had. And Tom Snyder would have, you know, kind of the more unique guests. And I remember one time he had the punk band or he had the first he's key called him the first punk band. But But I think they were just a bunch of group of guys from New York. Probably one of them was may have been David Johansson from the New York Dolls but but it was this was the 70s and it was a group of punk rockers and and he would always smoke during his interviews, so there was smoke everywhere and even light up a cig and he just asked the guys okay guys, why all the violence or something like really, very very pedestrian, but you had to you really had to see his antics to really understand how out of out of touch he was. And yet he was extremely popular.

Chuck Shute: 20:14

Yeah, there wasn't a lot of options back. There wasn't a million podcasts and YouTube channels back then. So you kind of have a watch. Yeah. Well, so then now

Greg Graffin: 20:21

you can, you're probably right, you can go look up Tom Schneider. Yeah, just type in now I remember him. You can type in Tom Schneider and punk. And

Chuck Shute: 20:30

that's awesome. Well, so then in the 80s, people kind of a lot of the punk fans gravitated towards metal you said because of all the violence and stuff that the punk shows. But you kind of thought hair metal or you you'd not kind of you did think hair metal was ridiculous. Do you still feel that way?

Greg Graffin: 20:47

Well, let's make something clear here. I didn't think the music was ridiculous. I thought the fashion was ridiculous. Oh, okay.

Chuck Shute: 20:56

Music. You're right, I've agree with that.

Greg Graffin: 20:58

I completely understand why punkers would would gravitate towards it. Because the music, a lot of the music was good. It was it was not as in sight, or incisive, it wasn't as what I would say, you know, charged with controversy as punk. But, you know, the lyrics sometimes were ridiculous. But the music itself was really good and fun. And so a lot of punk rockers who didn't want to get, you know, going to go have a riot or go beat up each other, which makes a lot of sense, they gravitated towards them, the, you know, hair metal concerts. And that's, it was totally understandable. I just couldn't, you know, I could not find myself doing that. I still thought Punk had a lot to offer. But basically, there was nowhere to play it because the clubs wouldn't allow punk shows because of the violence aspect. Right?

Chuck Shute: 22:03

Well, and then you have a whole chapter here about selling out because I remember that was a big thing. I remember that in the 90s, my friend who told you told me about bad religion the first time, you know, he was very critical of bands that they sold out. And I remember like when MC Hammer member, he said he sold out because he did a TV show or a cartoon or something. But now it seems like everybody has a TV show or they're acting or they have a million other things. Do you think being a sellout? Is that even a thing at this point anymore?

Greg Graffin: 22:32

I don't know if it's a thing anymore. I mean, the concept itself was trivialized. So there would be, you know, if a band that used to tour in a van, all of a sudden now is in a tour bus, you'd be accused of selling out. I mean, that's a that's just a trivial, almost nonsensical criterion for calling someone a sell out. So it became kind of trivial, but the concept of selling out, you know, the integrity part of it. It's like if you give up your integrity, just to be more popular, that is selling out, and that still exists. So I think the triviality has gone away. But there's still people who care deeply about integrity. And although you're right, it's easy to be cynical today and say there isn't any more integrity. But I think that that aspect does live on. You know, you don't you don't just play music because it's popular. You play music, because it's a part of you. And and I think the fans can sense that.

Chuck Shute: 23:45

Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, I mean, I really enjoyed the book. I just felt like at the end, I wasn't sure like, there wasn't like a conclusion that wrapped it all up like what do you think after all your life experience? Like I totally respect your opinion so much, because of like everything, your education and being a frontman of a band? Like what do you think it all meant? Like, how do you want this book to inspire other people? Like, is it just mostly perseverance or more lessons?

Greg Graffin: 24:11

That's a really good question. And it's a very, you know, after you've read the book, you may have to, you may have to sift through it again. Because there is there is a deeper and a persistent theme to the book. And that is that when you ultimately, you know, everyone's in the process through life of defining themselves, you know, trying to understand yourself, if you can't understand yourself, you really can't understand anything in the world. And that's something that I hope is not lost in the future, you know, because to know thyself is the ultimate knowledge. But in order to do that, is a very difficult thing. And I I couched it in the search or the quiet asked for understanding the origin of punk as a culture, and myself in that, in that cultural milieu. And you know, I did actually summarize it in the last pages when I said that, you know, in order to do that, you're going to have to identify the original punk, who was it, who's the original punk? And I said that the search for that, that's where the, the real quest in life is the is the journey, the search. And that's what we should celebrate. Because luckily, especially with punk, that journey will lead to good things. And the good news is that the extinction of punk that is the death of the, you know, the end of the journey is nowhere near in sight. So that's really an uplifting way to look at the end of the book to

Chuck Shute: 25:58

absolutely, well, I know you gotta get going here. Last thing is always like to end with a charity promoting a charity. Is there a charity that's near and dear to your heart that people can donate to after they buy your book?

Greg Graffin: 26:10

Oh, sure. I mean, I always I always like to. I'm pretty old fashioned when it comes to charity. You know, I, I don't think that you necessarily can save the world by donating to something global, I think when it comes down to need, needs are usually seen in your own community. And if you can just help out people near and dear to you, in your own community. That's the best thing you can do. So I always go for local food banks, and the Food Bank of the southern tier in New York is a worthy recipient.

Chuck Shute: 26:53

Yeah, I think that's something we can all get behind donating to food. Everybody needs food. Everybody can agree. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I know you got to get going. So I'll let you go. I really appreciate it. And good luck with this book. I think it's great. I think people should pick it up for sure.

Greg Graffin: 27:07

Well, many things, and I'll talk to you later.

Chuck Shute: 27:10

Okay. Bye, Greg. Oh, by my thanks to Greg Grafton and a bad religion and his PR team. He's a legend and I can't believe he did my show. But here we are some very grateful. I wish I had more time. But hopefully I can have him back again. I have a lot more questions to ask him. I would love to see him on Joe Rogan. I think that would be a fun back and forth. Make sure to get his new book punk paradox. It's great stuff. Even if you aren't a fan of the music. It's just a good read of a regular guy's life. And I think all people have an interesting story to tell. That's why I've had almost 300 episodes of the show where everyone tells their story. And if you want to help support this episode, and show and the show and Bad Religion, your likes, shares and comments on social media, we'll help the algorithm so more people will see it. And of course, make sure you subscribe to the show. Wherever you listen, so be the first to hear of new episodes. We've got some fun guests lined up so stay tuned for that. Thanks for listening. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.