Keri Spencer (R.I.S.E.)

Keri Spencer is a licensed attorney and executive director and founder of RISE (Restoring Identities after Sexual Exploitation).  RISE is a shelter for girls under age 18 who are victims of sex trafficking and/or commercial sexual exploitation.  In this episode we discuss the problem of sex trafficking in America, red flags, potential solutions, and if there will ever be another Jeffery Epstein.

0:00:00 - Intro
0:01:06 - Sex Trafficking Definition
0:04:56 - Victim Demographics
0:07:03 - Girl at Maverick's Game
0:11:21 - Typical & Non-Typical Trafficking Cases
0:15:36 - Trafficking of Immigrants
0:18:20 - Statistics & Worsening
0:20:05 - Backpages & Online Pornography
0:25:45 - Society's Views on Pedophilia
0:27:38 - Examples & Media Exposure
0:32:20 - Foster Care & Trafficking
0:34:50 - Branding & Tattoos
0:36:55 - Warning Signs
0:38:30 - Homelessness & Fentanyl
0:41:00 - Grooming & Downward Spiral
0:42:23 - Religious Cults
0:43:20 - Conspiracies & Next Jeffery Epstein
0:45:55 - Problems with Justice System
0:49:40 - Red Flags
0:56:36 - Solutions
1:00:25 - R.I.S.E. Shelter
1:06:50 - Publicity & Awareness
1:09:45 - Outro

Human Trafficking Help Line Website:
https://humantraffickinghotline.org/get-help

RISE Shelter website:
https://www.riseshelter.org

Damsel in Defense - protection products website:
https://damselindefense.net

GABB Wireless kids safe cell phone website:
https://gabbwireless.com

Protect Young Eyes website:
https://protectyoungeyes.com/

Chuck Shute website:
http://chuckshute.com

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:00

Hey, today on the show, we have Kerry Spencer, she is a licensed attorney and Executive Director and Founder of rise. And rise stands for restoring identities after sexual exploitation. It's a shelter for girls who are victims of sex trafficking. So this is a very disturbing topic. But one that I feel needs to be brought to the attention of people because I've learned so much about this issue during research. And then I learned even more during the episode while talking to Carrie, if you or someone you know, is a victim of sex trafficking, please reach out and get help. There are links in the show notes. And just a warning with this episode, a lot of the stuff we talk about is very disturbing, shocking. And it's not a fun topic. But again, it's a very important one to discuss and educate people on. And I hope that we can help some people by putting this out here. Please welcome Kerry Spencer, to the program. So you are the executive director and founder of Rhys and it's an that's an Oklahoma, correct?

Keri Spencer: 1:10

Yes, we are in bout 40 minutes east of Tulsa.

Chuck Shute: 1:16

Okay. And so yeah, so just how this is, so it's it's kind of a difficult subject to talk about. But I feel like it's one of those things that people need to learn about. And I just, I was very naive about sex trafficking. I thought, oh, that's just something that, you know, it happens in movies and TV shows that doesn't that are other countries. That doesn't happen in the US. And now I'm learning so much and how common it is. But let's define what is sex trafficking? Exactly, because I think people don't even know what that term really means.

Keri Spencer: 1:45

Okay. So most people, when you say sex trafficking, immediately, their mind and the images they conjure up are going to be quote unquote, traditional prostitution. You know, girl boy, and man woman on the street, walking up to the car, and and, you know, hopping in and accepting an offer to exchange money for some sort of sexual activity. That's what that's what most people think of. And yes, sex trafficking does include prostitution. However, sex trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation also encompasses a lot of other things. It can include exotic dancing, pornography, whether that's videos, or child pornography, or other types of pornography online, like still images, those kinds of things. And then what we see with our kiddos also includes some, we refer to it as survival sex. So what we know is that for kids who run away, who find themselves on the street, for whatever reason, with no place to stay no means of supporting themselves, those kinds of things. We know that typically, somewhere in the neighborhood of between the first 24 and 72 hours, that a child finds themselves on the street, that they're likely to be approached by someone who is going to traffic or exploit them. And, um, or, and if it's, if they're not contacted in that shorter period of time, they find themselves offering themselves as a way to survive, hey, I'll, I'll do this, if you'll get me something to eat. You know, it's really cold out here, or the weather's really bad or whatever, I'm willing to sleep with you if I can stay on your couch. So as a means of survival, and that and so. And then under the law, specifically with regard to the language. What how the laws read is that sex trafficking is when someone is forced frauded or coerced into exchanging sex for something of value, if they are over the age of 18. And if they're under the age of 18, if they exchange anything of value for sexual activity, then they are considered to be a victim of trafficking. So again, that's if somebody's you know, trade sex for drugs, trade sex, for getting their hair done, or something to eat a place to stay, getting their nails done, many no matter what if they are under 18, and they've traded something of value for sexual activity, then that is sex trafficking. If someone is over the age of 18 is a legal adult, then we have to be able to prove force fraud or coercion in order to be able to consider them a victim of sex trafficking.

Chuck Shute: 4:53

Okay, and and this can happen to anyone. But I don't know I read this on the internet. So you have to correct me and tell me if This is right. But it says most of the voted the most vulnerable populations for trafficking in the US include American Indian, Alaskan Native communities, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning individuals, individuals with disabilities, undocumented migrants, runaway and homeless youth and temporary guest workers and low income individuals is that mostly is that a majority of the of the victims?

Keri Spencer: 5:25

It is a lot of our victims. And, yes, traffickers are extremely adept at pinpointing those vulnerabilities and exploiting them, to get their victims to do what they're wanting them to do, which is to engage in this commercial sexual activity. However, that said, even though there are some populations that are much more vulnerable to than others, it can happen to anyone. I mean, it can happen to that kid who's from the quote, unquote, normal family, and, you know, girls cheerleader, and everything's rockin and rollin and looking, like, you know, she's on the right track, and families got it all together. And even that young lady or that young man, and can, can have some vulnerability of some sort that a trafficker hones in on whether it's, you know, despite what everything looks like, on the outside, the self esteem is really low, or, you know, perhaps the parents aren't, you know, they're unhappy and moving towards divorce, and that's causing some, you know, anxiety or emotional stress that that, that that child just simply doesn't know how to cope with or isn't equipped to navigate that through. And that's a vulnerability that a trafficker might exploit. So, really, there is no walk of life that is immune to this, but there are some populations that seem to be more vulnerable and seem to be over represented in the field of victims of sex trafficking.

Chuck Shute: 7:02

Yeah. So again, the way I Found You was from a news story about this girl at the Mavericks game. And I don't think this story got nearly the publicity I thought it was going to get. I thought this Oh, my God, this is a huge national news story. I don't think anybody knows about it. The only reason I found out is because my girlfriend works for Tegna. And I think they had that story because of the station in Texas, or Oklahoma or wherever it was. But tell us what you can about that story. Because it was a girl she was at a Mavericks game and she was picked up and and like already sex traffic into hotels, and through online ads, and there was multiple people involved. It wasn't just like one guy, it was like six or eight people or something.

Keri Spencer: 7:47

Right? And so to be honest with you, I too, didn't know about it until the news story. That's how little coverage it got. And didn't know about it until the news station, local news station here, contacted me and said, Hey, will you be part of this story? Do you know about this, I was like, No. And so even I had to go back and look at their original story to find out what they were talking about. But as I understood it, you know, again, Lady with dad, having you know, having dad and daughter date night at a ballgame, and she goes to the bathroom and never never gets back. And, like lickety split, before you know it, she's been, um, you know, abducted and taken to a different state. And, you know, luckily dad was on the ball and making calls and getting law enforcement involved right away. And, and they were able to find her very quickly, unfortunately, not before she had experienced the trauma of this. And but, you know, that story is is extremely scary for parents and for all of us. And I, you know, think about that young lady and hope that she is getting the services that she needs. I do want your listeners to know, though, that the, the stranger abduction and taken off, like what happened with that young lady actually is not as common, again, as movies and TV would like for us to believe. And a lot of our victims, again, know their traffickers because they they are in relationships with they get into relationships, romantic relationships with people that they meet online, and then eventually meet them and believe that this is a legitimate, romantic relationship reciprocated from the person they've been talking to. Unfortunately, sometimes, folks are trafficked by family members, people who are supposed to be taking care of them. And so while abductions like what happens with the young lady at the Mavericks game do happen. It isn't as often as As, as we think, something else?

Chuck Shute: 10:05

For sure. So yeah, that's what I wondered is because I was talking to my girlfriend about this and we were kind of fake trying to figure out what she had she messaged this guy earlier or is this was just a random guy grabs her, how did he get her out of the Mavericks game in broad daylight in public like that?

Keri Spencer: 10:20

Yeah, and that information, as far as the those details go, I don't have, the way it was presented to me is that it was kind of a random opportunity moment for those folks, as much as that they were looking for someone that that they could do this to, and she happened to be the one. And but you know, like I said, a lot of times in, in the stories, the girls stories that we in particular deal with, as we start to flesh out more of the details, and they're starting to work through their healing process and becoming more open to talking and, and working through the trauma, we find that maybe there is something else that that was missed that maybe she did know somebody and message them or whatever. But this particular young lady as I understood it, it was it was a completely random thing that time,

Chuck Shute: 11:20

okay, and you say that it's typically not like, taken with Liam Neeson, or it's also not like Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts, like, those are two very bad examples of what's what most of the issues that you're dealing with look like.

Keri Spencer: 11:34

Right. So like I said, our girls come from a number of walks of life as well, but they often have been in a relationship with the person who ends up trafficking them, that happens a lot, we refer to that as boyfriend being somebody they get into relationship with, with an older guy, and, and, you know, build up trust, and it's a fairly long process sometimes that this individual will groom them. And then, once they're, they they've groomed them long enough where young lady trusts them and is in love with them and is willing to do whatever, then they then they turn them out and into the sex trade. And we have had young ladies come who's whose parents have actually been involved in their trafficking, because parents had their own issues, say with substance use and abuse, and didn't have the money to pay for the drugs that they were addicted to. And it was a way to get those drugs to trade their their children in exchange drugs. And so, so yeah, then we've I've had girls who, who have come and they've actually been what we refer to as sprinted because Trafficking Victims are often trained to recruit others, and in to bring others into the fold of, of what they're doing. And so I have had that be the case where they made friends with somebody in the neighborhood where they live, or again, they have and somebody they knew at school that this was happening to, and they recruited them brought them in, and were groomed again, but by someone they know that they thought was their friend, and then found themselves in a situation they didn't know how to get out of.

Chuck Shute: 13:43

Yeah, it's kind of reminds me of like the the Jeffrey Epstein that just just Layne Maxwell. That's what she did is she, she recruited these women and the women trusted her well, because she's another woman. And then she reveals the Epstein and all the craziness of that whole situation. Right,

Keri Spencer: 14:00

right. And then and what happens is, and then, sometimes folks, one of the ways they'll be groomed is they'll get kids addicted to some sort of a substance, some substance that they also can't pay for. And so well, you're gonna have to do something for me somehow or some way because these drugs aren't free,

Chuck Shute: 14:23

then that's kind of like what they did and taken they got the girls. I can't remember what drug it was, but they hooked them up is is I know you say taken. That's not typically what you see. But is that a real? Is that stuff going on, like overseas or maybe not as much in the US, but there is situations like that, right?

Keri Spencer: 14:39

Yeah, there are situations like that that are going on overseas as well. And with in the United States, it's, um, we talked about it being hidden in plain sight, particularly with regard to to say adolescent girls, which is what Rhys works with. You know, these kids are go into school. And their trafficking is happening after school in the evenings or on the weekends, especially like I said, if it has anything to do with, if they're being trafficked by a caregiver or family member or someone like that, you know, they're they're going to keep up appearances of normal, as far as long as they can. So these girls can be at school every day, and may not be doing well in school because of all that they're experiencing, etcetera. But they're going to be, it's going to look pretty normal, right? We see a lot of people being brought over from other countries, to work at the nail salon, or work in the restaurant, work as a nanny, whatever, oh, you're going to be able to send money home to your family, because, you know, they're in Cambodia, and they're really poor there, or whatever it is, and you're going to be able to send this money over to help them, then, you know, they get here and their passports and documentation, identification, all that's taken from them, and held until they're able to pay back whatever it costs to get them here, but then that goalpost keeps getting moved farther and farther out. And so while they may work, actually work in the restaurant and actually work in a factory or actually work as a nanny actually work in the nail salon, then the sex trafficking gets brought in alongside because we could make more money, and you could make more money to send to your family and to hurry up and pay your debt off to me if you do this, too. So there's all of those kinds of situations as well.

Chuck Shute: 16:44

Okay, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, because it said 80% of the Trafficking Victims are born in the US, but that other 20% so that is what it's that's how I was gonna ask you about because I'm in Arizona. And that's a big issue right here with the border. People talk about the border. And, and that's what I wanted to know is their child sex trafficking victims being brought over through the border, like, that's what I would think is the deal that they make a will get you to America. And then so that is what's going on is that they're making those like that as a that's a big problem,

Keri Spencer: 17:13

right, um, for adults, and then we have actually heard stories to parents in some of these countries where the poverty is just more than anybody in the United States could ever possibly imagine. Because we have no idea what it's like to be in poverty here. Really. Right. And so I have had heard stories of parents from some of these countries actually, willingly, again, selling children to these people, whether it is to be brought into the United States or into another country, because again, you know, they're because they are actually living in the, in the trash dump. And so they're in their mind, they're like, Well, okay, then I'm at least I'm getting my child out of out of this. Right. And so yeah, so it is a problem with people coming in to the United States. That's they're tricked into doing these things. And, and like I said, and they don't speak the language, and they don't understand, you know, legal things and don't know how to get out of it.

Chuck Shute: 18:18

So, this is so awful. And the problem is getting worse, like, do you have the statistics I heard? I don't know if it was you, or somebody I read, said that the increase since the pandemic, the online trafficking is up 40% That's that's like a shocking statistic to me.

Keri Spencer: 18:33

Yeah, with the pandemic, we have seen a lot more internet and online use, uh, you know, I tell you when I am, I'm actually a lawyer by trade. And okay, you know, when I practice law, I practiced in juvenile court and I prosecuted delinquency cases. And I prosecuted foster care cases when the state would remove kids for abuse and neglect. And so I didn't come by what what I'm doing naturally, that's, that wasn't my wheelhouse. And, and, you know, so I took a lot of training for me, and to get to a place where I felt like I was comfortable enough to actually go ahead and take the leap and do this. But I went to a training on human trafficking and one of the speakers they're actually set up at the time because Backpage was still a thing. And she set up a surreptitiously a surreptitious account of herself saying that she was a 12 year old girl, right, or 13, or whatever, offering herself and then just let it run in the background while she was talking, so that we could watch in real time and the responses and the hits that she was getting. And I mean, it just ran like a, like a stock market ticker in a one hour session at a conference of all of the men that were just responding to this ad that she had literally just add up from scratch at the beginning of our session.

Chuck Shute: 20:04

Yeah, explain to me this in my audience to the back pages thing because I, I watched a couple of documentaries and they kept mentioning that website I, I think I'd heard of it, but I didn't really know what it was. And what the way I understand it was they used to advertise on Craigslist, back pages or something. And then Craigslist got rid of the classified adult escorts or whatever. But now there's this back pages, and I'm probably on some list because I went on the websites, I want to see what is this thing? So I go on there. I mean, it's like hardcore pornography. And it's blatant. It's blatant prostitution. I don't understand how that's legal. Now. None of the ones that I saw were underage. But even still, I mean, it's in Arizona, I don't think it's legal to have adult prostitutes. So how is this stuff legal? How is this how are these sites not shut down? Well, Backpage

Keri Spencer: 20:51

actually has had a ton of issues. And I'm not sure I was under the impression that with all of the legal issues that it actually had been shut down. So I'm not sure how long ago it was that you got on there, what you were seeing this morning, okay. Okay, was new or and, and so there's all of the, the ins and outs of, well, they're adults, and it's online. And so, you know, the and and even though it may not be legal in Arizona, if they're not in Arizona, then that's how they're getting around prostitution being illegal in Arizona, because this person actually isn't in that state. There's just a lot of ins and outs. And they've they've got hammered with a lot of with a lot of fees, fines, court costs, judgments that was that were levied against them in court cases. And there are supposed to be a lot of safeguards and regulations that are put in place on some of these websites, so that they're supposed to be ensuring that who they're dealing with is an adult, not a minor, but it that doesn't happen.

Chuck Shute: 22:01

Yeah, that seems like I guess on the one hand, they should crack down on that. But on the other hand, we'll maybe if it's out in the open, that's easier to catch him because that seemed like the documentaries I watched, that's what the cops were doing. And then you just thought you heard them. They're sending these vulgar texts. And they're, they're catching all the guys though, they're catching on, like, right away. So maybe that's a good thing, if you leave it up. I mean, I feel like one out of every three people on there's probably a cop like,

Keri Spencer: 22:24

right, right. And that's and I know, when a lot of the the the court cases were going on with Backpage and stuff that the police officers that I would talk to that was kind of where they were, they were had kind of mixed emotions about they're like, Yeah, we really need to shut this down. I need these people to be safe. And then they're like, but man, it's a really good investigative tool for me, because that's how I'm able to get in touch with a lot of these people. And, and, you know, make arrests and recover these people and save them from from this dangerous world. They're part of. So yeah, so it's, it's kind of a double edged sword on that, you know, because you can see why it needs to be shut down. But then, like, hey, if that's if that's our out to get a hold of these people, maybe we need to hang on to it for a little longer, you know? Yeah, yeah, making so many people being at home. And being online, we have seen an increase in particular, you know, with the online pornography. And, you know, we're finding that pornography, as if we didn't already know is just as addictive as substances that people get addicted to. And it does the same changes in the brain chemically, that substances do. So that when an individual starts watching pornography, you know, maybe they're watching, you know, softcore, porn, whatever the term board is, or, or something that you could still see on, you know, Cinemax or HBO. And then just like with a drug, it, it's you have to start watching it more often, in order to get those same feel good feelings. And then after a while, you have to start watching harder, and harder stuff to get that same feeling and more violent things into to eventually, the only way that person is going to get those same endorphins and feel good feelings that they have, from when they started is to start acting out what they've seen, just watching isn't enough. Well, and I mean, if you think about it, most of us who as I would say, normal folks aren't going to do the things that are in pornography, you're not, you're not going to ask your girlfriend to do that. She's gonna look at you, like you're a crazy person. did not approve, but I'm not doing that. Yeah. Um, and so then where do they go? Well, if they're paying somebody, they don't really get to say No, dude, I'm not doing that because they're paying for it, right? Yes, is that in a lot of these images and a lot of this pornographic stuff that we're seeing the girl holes in the guys that are on there young, sometimes teenagers. And so the demand for people that they're going to pay to look like the people they see on TV is high. And so we have seen an increase in the use of pornography and the pandemic, which then feeds the demand for the actual trafficking.

Chuck Shute: 25:21

It seems like there's something wrong with somebody, you know, there should be an innate sense between right and wrong, that's kind of built into people that goes, this is not like the fact that people are getting off on on hurting people, basically. I mean, I don't think these girls are enjoying this stuff. I mean, they're doing it, but reluctantly, that's where it becomes like, gross to me, and really sick.

Keri Spencer: 25:43

Right? Well, and you know, when you have, unfortunately, we're living in, in a time where I just truly don't understand. And I have two grown daughters. And so as a mom of two girls, I just don't understand a lot of things. So we're living in these crazy times where there's a movement to take pedophilia out of the DSM as a disorder and call it a sexual orientation. And trying to change the terminology like we're dealing with everything else and refer to to folks who suffer from this as a minor attracted individual. That's that's the term for you got heterosexual.

Chuck Shute: 26:24

Thanks. See, I've I said stuff like that five years ago, that's where society was heading. People said, I was being crazy, but this is the people are making a movement for this, huh? Yeah.

Keri Spencer: 26:34

Yeah. And like I said, in the term they're using is that I'm a I'm an MA P A minor attracted person. No, dude, you're a pedophile. And I'm sorry, you're a criminal. And I, you can call it what you want. But it's putting lipstick on a pig. It still is what it is. And so yeah, so I mean, there's, that's, that's the time we're living in, where we have a movement of people who want to say pedophilia isn't wrong, that, you know, kids really get enjoyment out of having sex with adults, and they're fine with it. And I'm like, listen, I run a house full of girls who had been sexually abused their whole life. And I'm here to tell you know, they don't, they don't enjoy it. They weren't okay with it. And it does cause problems. So you don't I mean, you can dress it up all you want, but it's not okay.

Chuck Shute: 27:22

Yeah, no, it's disgusting. And you're hurt. Like I said, you're taking advantage. That's why we have the law that you have to be 18. But I, you know, so the traffickers we talked about online, but they're also they're trained to recruit kids via school, church and the internet. And then I heard this statistics 36% of sex trafficking victims are boys. I saw this example. This is really gross, they lured this kid in, from video games, like discord. And there was a bunch of other ones that I'm too old to know what the heck these things are. But they lured this kid in, and he was living in a trailer in a 55 plus older community. And there was six men involved in this example, they kept the teenage boy in a trailer for over a year and repeatedly raped him. And it's just shocking to me that how are these people finding how the other pedophiles finding each other, and nobody is has the good sense to say, Hey, guys, this is wrong, or I don't, it's so confusing to me that this stuff goes on, in broad daylight, underneath the watch of all these other people that are living in the community, nobody knew what was going on.

Keri Spencer: 28:24

Well, and again, that's, that's part of unfortunately, where our society has devolved, not evolved. And, you know, we don't, we don't pay attention. And we don't know each other. And like, like they did when, you know, when your grandparents and my grandparents were, you know, living in Leave It to Beaver times, or whatever, where, you know, neighbors, new neighbors, and we're at each other's houses and, and, you know, all of our kids played together and all those things, you know, we that's what our kids do our kids camp out inside in their own video games. They're not outside playing with the neighborhood kids like I was, and you know, we didn't talk to and parents don't talk to each other. And so I mean, we're just we're kind of oblivious to anything that's going on in the world, except for me right now in this moment. And when you're not paying attention, and when you don't care. These folks can do whatever they want. And no one's looking.

Chuck Shute: 29:27

Yeah, well, there's here's another story and again, I don't bring this stuff. I just don't bring this stuff up to shock people. Or maybe I do I just, I think people need to be aware of this stuff is happening. This was a story Metro Detroit. I don't know if you heard about this. 112 kids were rescued in a sex trafficking rings. There was eight adults and then 46 John's or whatever you call it. But one of the things that the on this one was undercover police officer, a three month old baby and a five year old girl where it made a deal to sell the for$600 to an undercover police officer. I mean That's just the one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life. Thankfully, it was an undercover police officer and not a real person. But I mean, is that is that something that's happening is it's a go that young are selling babies and five year olds? Yep. Every day? Oh my gosh, I just I don't even know what to say to that. I don't know why this is not bigger news or more people are not discussing this instead of Johnny Depp and Amber hurt. I mean, this is a way bigger issue and problem that no one is talking about. It's just as shocking to me. I don't even know what how to even proceed with this. It's just really disgusting that How is this not major headline news?

Keri Spencer: 30:40

Right? Well, and you know, I'm I actually I have a, I have a PowerPoint that I do when I go to civic organizations, or church organizations or whatever, to talk about trafficking, and talk about rise and one of events. And one of the slides is just as headlines from our area. So, you know, state senator convicted of sex trafficking, you know, lawyer, arrested for child porn, you know, doctor, whatever, like, when people say, You know what, this isn't happening here? Who's buying sex? And like, let me tell you, it's pastors and lawyers, and doctors and police officers, and firefighters and teachers and your next door neighbor. It isn't the creepy looking, dirty guy that you see. On cops.

Chuck Shute: 31:39

Yeah, it could be anybody. That's what you're saying?

Keri Spencer: 31:41

Yeah, yeah. Those are the people who are buying sex. And, and so and I'm not one to sugarcoat things, because the girls I worked for, haven't had it easy. So I'm gonna make it clear to people what's going on. And in the United States, we have a child between the ages of 12 and 14 trafficked for sex for the first time, every two and a half minutes. And what is happening is people are paying money to rape our children. Heroes, this is

Chuck Shute: 32:14

so disgusting. But I'm so glad that we're shining a light on this problem as hard as it is to talk about it. Can you tell me about the connection between foster families and sex trafficking? How common is that?

Keri Spencer: 32:25

So what we know is that about 87 to 90% of kids who are trafficked in the United States have been involved with the foster care system, at least one time in their life.

Chuck Shute: 32:35

Oh, wow, that's a huge percentage

Keri Spencer: 32:37

it is it. And that has to do with that vulnerability piece that we talked about before. Okay, got kids that are coming from a background of dysfunction already, whether it's Mom and Dad or drug users, or there's sexual abuse or some other form of abuse in their house, something that's happened, that's led them to be involved with with a DHS, a CPS, and get them in foster care for some period of time. And foster care is not, you know, a perfect system. It is what we have, but it's not great. And so while kids are taken from their families, and in foster care for a period of time, and families are doing whatever is required of them to get their kids back, some of those issues really aren't addressed necessarily as the head on and as in depth as they need to be. And kids get back home and the issues are still there again, or the kids necessarily didn't weren't given the period of time to work through the traumas that came along with being in foster care. And so they're part of that population of kids that are just more vulnerable. They've been abused already. their self esteem is is low, they they live perhaps in a lower socio economic status than than other people. There, they just already have those vulnerabilities built in. And like I said, traffickers know, you know, perhaps they their parents are, you know, they're doing the best they can but, but they're not really well educated. And so they aren't looking as closely to what their kiddos are doing online. And social media. They just now while all the kids are doing it, so my kids fine. You know, she hugs and kisses me bed every night. And so they're not necessarily paying attention to who they're talking to online.

Chuck Shute: 34:37

That's a good demographic for teachers and counselors and neighbors and parents and family members to kind of keep an extra eye on because they're more at risk is what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What about explain this connection? This is an interesting thing to me. Branding and tattoos. It sounds like there's a lot of burn scars, branding, and tattoos kind of took Like the people that the traffickers kind of do this to mark the girls like they own them. And they I saw thing where they talked to a tattoo artists who removes them for free or covers them up, which is really cool. He said the markings are getting bigger, and they're getting bigger and bigger, which is really disturbing, too.

Keri Spencer: 35:16

Yeah, well, there's there's a lot of rules in the sex trade, and on the street, and a lot of things that occur, because gang activity is a big part of trafficking in a lot of instances. And there's just a lot of rules you don't look. You don't look pimp in the eye. And if you look, because, or you know, another guy in the eye, because then that person after you've looked him in the eye, you now belong to Him. And a lot of things like that. And so, yes, the branding, that with tattoos, whether it's a symbol or an actual name, is a trafficker putting their mark to show their ownership so that another pimp can't take this girl or this boy. From them, it is I mean, it literally is just as you say, it is a it is a marking of property. And we have had some girls that have come in with those, you know, and especially for the girls who are in a relationship with this person, somebody they're in love with, you know, they're they're going to have manipulated them into believing well, just like everybody else, you know, she's got her man's name tattooed on, you know, what, on her arm. I love you, baby. That's, that's all I'm doing is having you put my name on on you just like everybody else does. But it's, it's the manipulation run runs deep.

Chuck Shute: 36:46

Okay, so that could be another thing if people see things like that, that could be a sign.

Keri Spencer: 36:51

Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I tell like teachers in particular, because, you know, if teachers, teachers pay attention, they know, their kids, they know, they know, the backgrounds they come from, for their families. You know, if you've got a kid who's from a family that, you know, just simply, you know, that they're not doing as well as maybe as some of your other kids and, and suddenly, it seems like she's always coming in with nails done. Well, that's not an inexpensive service. You know, her hair is she's getting her hair colored every six weeks. She's got these name brand clothes, or Michael Kors, purse or whatever the latest greatest name brand is whatever. And you know, that's not the family she comes from. And you guys started asking questions. Girls, I know when I was in high school, we did it. You know, we'd have our purses. And when we'd go into class, drop it on the floor by the desk, it's wide open. teacher walks by and she's got three or four key cards to Motown. She's 15. I'm gonna need you to start asking questions because a 15 year old can't rent a room. Mm hmm.

Chuck Shute: 37:56

Yeah, no, that's, that's one of the things which I think was at the Mavericks girl where they, they said, there's so many people that could have brought this to their attention when when an older man and a young girl goes to rent a room in a motel, and then there's people coming in and out of that room. That's a huge red flag. It's very bizarre that nobody, I think, eventually is designed how they caught the guy. I can't remember.

Keri Spencer: 38:17

But yeah, yeah, that's, and like I said, it's just it's that whole mind your own business world that we live in. So

Chuck Shute: 38:28

well, and that's Is there any correlation with the homelessness and the fentanyl because I know here in Phoenix, that's a big thing. I had a guy on who he's like a YouTuber, and he interviews a lot of the kids on the street that are homeless, and almost all of them are addicted to fentanyl. Is that a is there a correlation between that and sex trafficking?

Keri Spencer: 38:47

Yeah, because again, that's I mean, that's gonna they're homeless, and they're addicted to fentanyl. And that's how they're going to pay for it. And I've had recently, um, several of our girls that have come to rise. Fit no has been part of their story. And when it wasn't, I mean, even just four years ago when we opened in 2018 I mean, like, you know, somebody called me it's, uh, yeah, we she's been on the run for three weeks we found or in target on Tuesday, she was high on fentanyl. Okay, and like I said, February 2018. When I opened up I never heard the term fentanyl Yeah, and

Chuck Shute: 39:23

I never heard this guy that I had on he kind of educated me about blues and smoke and blues. I was like, What are blues I guess though these little blue pills of fentanyl that's what the that's what the street name is. I didn't even know what that was

Keri Spencer: 39:35

right. And saying like for instance, you know, I had one young lady who you know when when you get into her stories, well my mom actually started me on fentanyl when I was 12 Oh my god, like Okay, great. So clearly, you know, we're not going to be working with mom you know I'm so Yeah, and again, yet I Um, and that's why kids go to parties, and they're all trading various prescriptions and trying them out. And, you know, kids literally think nothing for I mean, I've heard of kids go into parties where, you know, somebody's having a party, because parents are out of town for the weekend, and everybody decides it might be cool to start experimenting, sexually, you know, whether they're trading boyfriends and girlfriends or trying out same sex relationships for the first time or whatever. And then here's the thing with when we know, you know, teenager's brains aren't completely developed, well, then they meet somebody who starts asking them to do something for money. They're like, you know, I've already done it all for free, you may as well get paid. And that can't be worse than all these things I've already done.

Chuck Shute: 40:53

Yeah. And then it's just this downward spiral. Where they just Yeah, I mean, and that's, it seems like it always starts out with something. I heard this lady tell her story. She was an adult, but it was a thing where she had this boyfriend, and he would just plant little seeds. And I think that's the grooming process, like, Oh, I know, this girl that she got made, you know, $500 a night stripping, and like the girlfriend's calling, Oh, that's weird. And then like, as like, time went on, and then they had money problems, then I was like, the seeds already planted. And then it was just like, this downward spiral is really strange.

Keri Spencer: 41:23

Yeah. And then, like I said, and then they can't get out of it. They can't see a way out of it, or in politics, and in particular, with adults, because of having to prove that force fraud, or coercion, which is difficult from an adult perspective. What they wind up with is, is being arrested over and over and over again, for solicitation, or prostitution, and they have this terrible record that then follows them for the rest of their lives, and they can't get legitimate work, you know, for as much as they you know, and maybe they find themselves out of the life several times, but then because of their criminal record, as an adult, they can't get a job to support themselves. And so they, they just fall back on this because it's what they know.

Chuck Shute: 42:12

That's a terrible, that's, well, hopefully, that's something that we can change. If we shed a light on this. You know, we I think people can change, I think people can do amazing things. So I don't think that should be something that should be held against them. What about with religious cults? And is that a common thing? Or is that pretty? Is that kind of rare with the sex trafficking? Like, we just watched the Netflix documentary, keep sweet pray and obey? Because that's, it takes place a few hours from here in Arizona? That court was there. And I mean, it was just disturbing to hear about that. But is that is that more of a rare thing? Or do you see some of that?

Keri Spencer: 42:44

I have not ever seen any of that, you know, we do know the stories about some of the religious cults and fanatics and things where they take multiple wives and some of them are very young. But as far as then, like, turning them out on the street and being publicly traded, I've, I've I've not heard of that. Okay, what I've heard of it has always been within, you know, just just within that, that cold, not that it's any better,

Chuck Shute: 43:15

but Right. Okay, kind of a different thing. Gotcha. Now, what about with these conspiracies, like how high up to these trafficking rings go? Because again, when I see these, like six people involved, eight people involved? I mean, is there a you think there's like another Jeffrey Epstein out there right now that just hasn't been caught?

Keri Spencer: 43:33

Oh, I believe it 100%

Chuck Shute: 43:37

That's some scary stuff. And I

Keri Spencer: 43:39

try not to be a conspiracy theorist. But I'm telling you, when you start following the money, and you start following some of these other things, and I mean, and then like I said, and just knowing that the people who sell and the people who buy are from all walks of life, and all professions, and all of these kinds of things, you know, it isn't far fetched to me to believe that there, you know, is a network and layers upon layers upon layers. And if we ever knew the truth of how high up it would go, we would all just be amazed.

Chuck Shute: 44:12

Well, yeah, because they're probably having some of these guys take the fall for them that are the the lower level people, right?

Keri Spencer: 44:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, money is a powerful thing. It's it's a powerful motivator. And people are willing to do what whatever it takes to keep having that money come in. And yeah, it seems

Chuck Shute: 44:37

like again, not to get too much on this conspiracy thing, but I don't think they have they released the list of people that went to the Epstein island like that's another thing that's really kind of disturbing to me is that these people are not being gone. I know they went after just just Lane Maxwell wherever. But what about all the people that visited the island that that had sex with the minors? Are they not being arrested to seems

Keri Spencer: 44:57

not so far, like I said, and you know, Keep, we're here to talk about, you know, maybe she's going to release her quote unquote black book or her customer list, maybe she's not I don't know, that's up for debate and whether or not she's trying to make deals about that, so that her consequences are lesser if she's willing to give names and those kinds of things. And when your consequences don't need to be lesser, and I still need the names. Yeah, it

Chuck Shute: 45:26

seems like they should be able to find it. If they I mean, I'm sure they have a warrant by now and they've been able to look at it, they really hit it that well, that they the FBI can't find it, or DEA whoever is in charge of this,

Keri Spencer: 45:37

I don't know that they necessarily haven't found it, I just think that perhaps some of the names are at folks that are so powerful, that they're not going to do anything about it.

Chuck Shute: 45:47

Yeah, that's some scary stuff. And I mean, obviously, there's a lot of problems with the justice system in this and I heard, one of the things is the long wait between the arrests, and the trial for the traffickers, and then that the victim has to kind of relive it, like how many victims just drop out, because they don't want to testify and relive all this stuff

Keri Spencer: 46:05

a lot in and so and not having the testimony of the victim. And because there's all of the legal mumbo jumbo of corroboration and things like that, when you don't have the testimony of the person that it actually was happening to, it can make a case very hard to prosecute. And so what we see a lot are cases pleading out to some lesser charges, and to avoid that additional trauma to the victims, or because the victims don't want to testify, and be cooperative with with that part. Because, you know, I had listened to and heard a number of victims who are adults speak, and, and tell their story, whether it's at a conference or whatever. And, you know, when you get to talking to them, they'll tell you that, you know, especially when they were a lot closer in time, to their trafficking happening, that the first time that they told their story in public, that, you know, they would go back to go home or wherever and, you know, be in a, in a fetal position of, you know, PTSD, or just anxiety and depression and fear and all of those things, from telling their story in public and the reliving that they're having to do just to explain to you, and to tell you, here's what happened to me, and here's why you need to know this is going on. And, and so then you put them in the adversarial setting of a courtroom with the idea that, you know, anything can happen, no matter how good the evidence is, someone still may not be found guilty or whatever. And that whole thought process going along with the and I have to sit right in front of him or her because traffickers can be women and have to say all of these things that I'm so ashamed of, it's, it's a really hard sell sometimes to get someone to say, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go through that process, even though with every fiber of their being they want this person to be held accountable and not be able to do this to anybody else.

Chuck Shute: 48:28

Now that's a I don't know what how would we can we change the law so that they could just testify on a video or something, because that does seem very skewed to in the abusers favor?

Keri Spencer: 48:40

Well, and there and all of this states have the availability of closed circuit TV for some testimony and things like that in in sex cases, but it requires motions to be filed, and party, you know, parties to be in agreement and a judge to allow and all of those things and that we have had a couple of Supreme Court rulings that have come down with regard to being able to face your accuser that have made some of that a little bit more difficult to do in certain cases in certain situations because of the Confrontation Clause and that the constitutional right to that and but but there are some options like that that can be used. And I think a lot of prosecutors you know, use it as much as they possibly can, but sometimes it just isn't allowed in whatever court for whatever reason, and so

Chuck Shute: 49:37

Okay, well let's let's educate people about the red flags. So we talked about some of them like you said, the fancy persons the motel key cards, some other ones and again, these are not you know, if person has one of these doesn't mean they're necessarily but it's just good thing to it's a red flag for sure. Like person seems overly fearful, submissive, tense or paranoid. And this is an interesting one person is deferring to another person before giving information,

Keri Spencer: 50:03

right? So that certainly you're going to see, maybe in a healthcare setting like in an emergency room, somebody comes in, and they have an injury. Again, lot, some of the dynamics too are going to be very akin to what we expect to see, say in a domestic violence victim. So we're going to get weird and out there explanations for injuries or, or explanations for injuries that don't correspond with the injury itself or just don't make sense, right? More. So they're in an emergency room. And in the context, girls with a guy and the guy is doing all the talk and answering all the questions, even the history questions, the health history questions that she should be doing all the answering, or, you know, she does look at him or defer to him before she gives an answer those kinds of things. You're gonna see that I know, one of our young ladies actually helped me I did a presentation for an and conference for paramedics and EMTs. And I was like, okay, so what do you want these folks to know? What do you want them to be looking for? And she said, Well, first of all, they need to be really cognizant of where they're being called out to. Right? Are you being called out to a seedy motel, or you being called out to, to an address, and it's an abandoned house, but this girl is where she lives? And you know, pay attention again, to what is she wearing? When you get called out as a paramedic? Is she you know, she only wearing underwear? Or is she very clearly 1415 years old? And that lingerie is clearly meant for an adult woman? You know, those kinds of things? And again, what explanation is she giving you for injuries? And I know she talked about to even sometimes, bruises and injuries not being covered up, whether it's marks around the neck from being choked, or other things like that. She said, Because the particular pimp that she had would not make sure, always the injuries were covered up because he needed that to be assigned to his other girls. That when you don't be which was supposed to this is what happens. Wow. Right? So so so. So that was one of the things too, she says like even pay attention to those injuries that are visible. Now that makes sense, not just the ones that aren't,

Chuck Shute: 52:35

right. So you behavior, clothing, inappropriately sexual or inappropriate for whether the girls overly sexual minors unaccompanied at night, or falters and giving an explanation of who they are with and what they're doing. What is it? This one says identification documents are held by Oh, yeah, so like, if the somebody else has their ID and stuff that would be as a sign,

Keri Spencer: 52:57

right. So like, like, we were talking earlier, for the folks who are maybe here from another country, and the folks are holding on to their documents and identification until their debts paid off? Again, or for you know, someone who is an American, they, they should have a hold of all of those themselves. But, you know, their explanation is, you know, I don't have that because some somebody else does, or, you know,

Chuck Shute: 53:23

yeah, and multiple phones or multiple social media accounts can also be a sign a red flag,

Keri Spencer: 53:30

we have had a number of girls who that is how their trafficking was actually discovered, is that owns that they couldn't explain. And mom and dad didn't get it for them at the time. So when somebody wants to start looking at their phone, they lose their absolute ever lovin mind, about people looking at this phone. And so yeah, so an unexplained phone, or just a phone where somebody is absolutely, then just I mean, completely falling apart at the thought I'd be going through it. That's how a number of our girls have been. Their trafficking has been discovered.

Chuck Shute: 54:18

So if parents check their kids phones, I know that kids probably don't want to hear that. Sorry, kids. But you know, parents gotta be parents and do the parenting job. And I think I know there's like programs and things that I think I heard you or somebody talking about a program that you could put on the kid's phone where if words like sex or things like that, it'll notify the parents what was it was it called like damsel in distress or something like that?

Keri Spencer: 54:41

distress is a direct sales company that sells self protection stuff to women, and they actually have an app that you subscribe to that will notify parents. But you know, some of the cellphone companies have some parental controls that you can subscribe do now that do the same thing, there is actually a couple of phone companies one is called gab G, A B B wireless, that is very specifically made for kids where you can't even put the internet and social media apps on it. And then, and that you have to actually pay extra to allow your kids to be able to receive photos in their text messages, like, literally make phone calls and get phone calls. And they can send texts. But um, but words only unless you pay the extra monthly fee for them to be able to do group texts or photos. So it's massively controlled cellphone. So there are a number of those. And then we do just, there is a certainly on Facebook, there is a group called protect young eyes. That is, that is really great. They keep up with a lot of the apps that are coming out and websites and are really good to, to provide educational materials for parents. And then I will regularly even on our Facebook page, share graphics that say, Hey, these apps, you know, if your kids got them, and you want your kid to keep having them cool, but you really need to keep track of what's happened in there. And then if you can live with your kid without letting them out of those apps, that's even better. Just because they're I mean, the the apps and the internet is terrible.

Chuck Shute: 56:32

Yeah. So that's great. I'll put some of those links in the show notes. What other big scale type solutions if you like, if you had a magic wand, like is there certain laws that you would change? Like, I mean, I feel like I don't know, maybe the back pages again, we kind of talked about that. Maybe there's some pros to having to be out in the open. Maybe the laws of the border, more home visits by social workers, like I don't know, like, what kinds of laws can we do are solutions to this problem? And I guess a big thing to me, I feel like is awareness. I feel like a lot of people don't even know this is going on.

Keri Spencer: 57:03

Yeah, awareness and education always is that first step. But I think that we need to be a lot better in our country and a lot harder on the people who are actually buying sex.

Chuck Shute: 57:15

Okay, yeah, cuz I, what is the what is the punishment for that? I thought I thought I saw one thing where they put the guy away for 14 years, that was the John or the customer, whatever you call it,

Keri Spencer: 57:26

and we are getting better about that. But in a lot of places, again, if we don't have a lot of cooperation from victims, it's going to wind up being a misdemeanor solicitation, charge or pandering. And, and I'm like, Listen, if if, if a police officer bissap into the Motel Six room, and dudes there and the girls 14, I'm gonna need a whole lot more than a misdemeanor pandering charge.

Chuck Shute: 57:51

That's what that's only a misdemeanor for 14 year old solicitation.

Keri Spencer: 57:55

Yeah, I mean, like I said, it can vary from state to state. But I mean, like I said, if you don't have cooperation from your victim, you know, there's all different ins and outs of how someone can get that down to a misdemeanor. But I mean, there are a lot of places where we're what's being pursued against those people who purchase is going to be pandering or solicitation. And I'm like, I just, that's not enough.

Chuck Shute: 58:21

So cracking down and tougher laws will put some of these people away. So because if they're a misdemeanor, then they're gonna get out, and then they're gonna do it again. Right? There's a lot of repeat offenders. Yeah, absolutely.

Keri Spencer: 58:32

And I and you know, we have the states have laws on the books that don't allow minor victims to be charged with, like prostitution. And a lot of states that won't let you pursue charges against minors if the crime arose out of their trafficking. So like, they can't be charged with the recruiting piece, or, I mean, the even, I mean, because there there are some other crimes and you know, robbery and things like that, that can actually arise out of trafficking. So that if it arises out of that, and they're minors, you can't let them do that. But I think that there needs to be some changes in the laws, excuse me with with regard to adults as well. Because I'm a woman, and I'm here to tell you, I've never gotten up one morning and said to myself, You know what, I think that my career choice is going to be one that requires me to have sex with strangers, who may or may not beat the crap out of me. Hold guns to my head knives to my throat, where I'm going to be arrested regularly have this terrible criminal record. And this stigma, I mean, it's not a choice, even if you're an adult. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, you know, there's been things that you that have gone on in that man or woman's life up to this point that have put them in a position to believe that the only way that they have to support themselves is this. Right. And so I think that we, we need to look at our laws with regard to, to the criminal records we're getting to the adults that are part of this world as well.

Chuck Shute: 1:00:20

Okay, that's a great yeah, like all that stuff. So now tell me about more specifically about rise I know you have housing for is it seven people or nine are assumed to be nine, it

Keri Spencer: 1:00:30

seemed to be nine, but it's seven right now. So rise stands for restoring identities after sexual exploitation. And we were a treatment home a long term treatment home for Teen Girls. And that's currently you know, in, in a in a perfect world, if I had all the money in the world, I would love to have a campus that was for victims for boys. Oh, yeah, because we only have a few locations in the country that actually provide services for boys, really. But because the overwhelming majority of victims are girls that that's who we focus on. And we take girls as young as 12. They can stay with us past 18. But under our licensing in Oklahoma, they have to admit to rise before their 18th birthday. But then they can't stay past that.

Chuck Shute: 1:01:25

How long can they stay past just,

Keri Spencer: 1:01:28

it's really kind of up to us. And then they're still in services that we, like I said, we provide comprehensive services to the girls, like I said, they live here. And they go to the public school here. It's online and all virtual in house. That's for their safety and confidentiality, but they are enrolled students in our public school here for the girls that that makes sense, which is individualized. So you know, we have some girls that come that you know, based on their age, and how far behind they are in school, a GED makes more sense. So if that makes more sense for a young lady, rather than, than working on traditional high school diploma, then we're going to work on that as well. So they get individual counseling, group counseling, family therapy, for those whose families are supportive and are going to be a part of that. We have 10s of life skills groups and job skills groups, we have the electronic infant simulators. And so all of our girls have to be parents, oh, for a while, and we do. We do a Sex Education Week, and every quarter and believe it or not, and the girls actually learn things that for as much as they experienced, they don't know. Like, we go out and we buy all the fruits and vegetables and they learn how to put on condoms, most of them don't know how to do that. We talked about pregnancy, we talked about sexually transmitted diseases, all of those kinds of things, and birth control all of those kinds of things when we do when we do that that week, but lots of life skills groups, and then we do a lot of just normalization recreation, let's be a regular kid. So we're gonna go swim, and we're gonna get a roller skating, we're gonna go to the movies, and I have one staff that this is totally her wheelhouse. She has a couple of girls daughter's younger daughters at home. And so she she's seems like she's always the one who does this, they put on their own beauty pageant. And they do, they'll do celebrity look alike step or their pull up pictures online of, of celebrities they like and then they'll, they'll all sit around and do each other's hair and makeup. And to try and look like that picture or, you know, and that but we do lots of things in the community to for that we have a historical theater in our downtown, and they do a camp every summer for a week, where the girls focus on dancing and acting and singing. And so we've had a couple of girls do that. And then they put on a show at the end of the week. And then we do lots and lots and lots of community service and give back steps. So we have a large Veterans Hospital here in our town, so the girls will make cards for the veterans that are there. They make baked goods and take them to the police department and they go hang out with residents at nursing homes, and just all kinds of stuff like that. They've they've served lunch at the local homeless shelter. Yeah, so

Chuck Shute: 1:04:29

it sounds like all great stuff. I love all this. My concern was would be with this place. Now, is this a hidden location? Or do you have security because I wouldn't be scared of some of these traffickers getting angry and coming back and trying to find the girls.

Keri Spencer: 1:04:44

Right. So we do not disclose our street address and it's not published anywhere. We actually we have like if you when you're on our website, it says a Pio box, whatever. And I'll have people say so you're located in this town where our Pio boxes? And um, they actually, no, actually no, not. But I did that on purpose. Right? So our Pio box isn't even in the same town, or the house actually is. In we do have our we have secured doors people can't just walk in, like my, they have key codes and my staff have to put in a code to get in. And we have a security gate, where again, when when visitors come for whatever reason, they pull it to the gate, and they have to, they have to call and phone number to be buzzed in. Like I said, then they get to the front door, and they still have to someone has to go let them into the building, even if they're already on campus. And we just don't have a ton of visitors. Either every visitor is cleared by me. And if and you know, and there's confidentiality agreements, like I don't even I don't even interview for staff to work here on site. Like I make them meet me at a local coffee shop, and I do an interview to hire somebody on site. And they do not come on campus to be a staff member until I've had the interview process. They've done the background of fingerprinting check process. And I've said yes, you work here now.

Chuck Shute: 1:06:12

How many staff members you have?

Keri Spencer: 1:06:14

We have an when you count me we have 11? Wow.

Chuck Shute: 1:06:18

That's, that's a big staff. So Can people I always end each episode with a charity? Can people donate to this as a nonprofit? Or is there another charity that you recommend people give to?

Keri Spencer: 1:06:29

Yes, we are 100%, nonprofit, 501 c three. Okay, every dollar that we have goes to perfect adding the services and letting the girls live here.

Chuck Shute: 1:06:40

Okay, so people want to help this cause they can donate to you, because you're doing the Lord's work over there. I mean, it's amazing. I love it. I love what you're doing. And hopefully, again, like we've like I said, we've kind of shed a light on this for some people. And I hope this issue gets more publicity. I just I don't understand why it doesn't. But I'll do my part, you know, with my tiny little podcast here. So hopefully, this informs some people and educates.

Keri Spencer: 1:07:03

Yeah, I hope so. And what I have found is that I'm trafficking sometimes I referred to as the topic desert, or the social issue does your, because it seems like it kind of goes in waves where it, there's, there's a lot of awareness. And it's, and it's, you know, every cable news channels run in some sort of one hour special, or they're, you know, there's tons of Made for TV, movies, or whatever about it, and then it kind of drops off and, and people forget, and then something happens like Jeffrey Epstein, and then everybody's talking about it again, and then kinds of drops, because nobody wants to talk about people having sex with our kids.

Chuck Shute: 1:07:44

It's disturbing. It's massively disturbing. And it's massively disturbing on how common it is. And like we said before, like how there's multiple people involved, and we don't know how far these things go up. And I mean, it's, it's really, I feel like there needs to be a bigger crackdown. I mean, you said, you know, the laws making the laws stricter. I agree with that. But I also think there needs to be more investigation into to this stuff and more law enforcement teams dedicated to this issue.

Keri Spencer: 1:08:12

Yeah, yeah. It's, and we, you know, we have law enforcement agencies here that have specific divisions that are just the trafficking unit. And then, you know, smaller places there, or, you know, folks that just don't have as many resources perhaps, there, maybe it's their vice unit that already exists, that's going to a lot of that. But yeah, it's, we need a lot more. And, but it's, it seems like, you know, like I said, in, in our, in our current climate, it's one one of many things in the basket, and it's not the one that's getting the most attention compared to everything else.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:51

Right? Well, there's a lot of stuff a lot of problems in the world, but geez, this one to me is that the it's got to be towards the top of the list, if not the number one issue that needs to be solved, or maybe not solved completely, but geez, improvements and cracking down on some of the stuff and changing some laws. And raising awareness is huge, too. So Well, thank you so much for doing this, anything else I missed or anything else you want to bring up?

Keri Spencer: 1:09:16

You know, like I said, anybody wants to support us, they can always check out our website, it's just rise shelter.org. And my email address is listed there. And anybody can reach out to me anytime. I think even my personal cell phone number may actually even be on there too. And like I said, I can't ever get away from my phone. So maybe questions or wants to help in any way just they can just get on there and reach out to me and be happy to chat with them anytime.

Chuck Shute: 1:09:39

Okay, I'll put that in the show notes too. So people can just click the link.

Keri Spencer: 1:09:42

All right, thank you so much. All right.

Chuck Shute: 1:09:46

Okay, thank you again to Kerry Spencer from Rhys for all the work that she's doing. Her the link to her organization is in the show notes along with the links for getting help. If you want to make a difference. You can donate to Karis organization Rhys or even just sharing this episode, and helping spread the word and educate people on the problem is helpful to thank you so much for listening or watching. Make sure to subscribe to the show so you'll be updated on future episodes. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.