Chuck Shute Podcast

Wiley Arnett (Sacred Reich guitarist)

June 10, 2020 Chuck Shute Season 2 Episode 40
Chuck Shute Podcast
Wiley Arnett (Sacred Reich guitarist)
Show Notes Transcript

In depth interview with Sacred Reich guitarist Wiley Arnett, who is also a co-owner of Rehab Burger Therapy in Scottsdale, Arizona. 

0:00:00 - Intro
0:02:06 - Welcome Wiley!
0:02:40 - Influences 
0:05:35 - Dropping Out of High School
0:07:45 - Jason Newsted of Metallica 
0:12:00 - Ignorance Album & Thrash Metal 
0:16:25 - Surf Nicaragua EP and O.D. Mascot
0:18:48 - Tour with Motorhead & Lemmy
0:23:25 - Tour with Sepultura & Napalm Death 
0:29:35 - Encino Man Soundtrack 
0:31:03 - Independent Record 
0:33:25 - Tour with Pantera 
0:40:10 - Decline in Metal Popularity
0:48:15 - Hiatus and Resurgence of Metal 
0:49:30 - Playing Festivals
0:53:01 - Tour with GWAR
0:58:20 - Getting Rights to Old Records
1:00:40 - Opening Rehab Burger 🍔 
1:14:00 - Live Concerts and Coronavirus 
1:15:55 - New Sacred Reich Album
1:17:20 - Children's Hospital 
1:18:09 - Wrap Up 

Wiley Arnett Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/wiley.arnett/

Children's Hospital
https://www.phoenixchildrens.org

Chuck Shute Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/chuck_shute/


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Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!

Chuck Shute :

Welcome to the Chuck Shute podcast. My guest today is Wiley Arnett, guitarist from the band sacred Reich and also the owner of rehab burger here in Scottsdale, which is a really popular restaurant not only known to Arizona locals, but it's also gotten a lot of national exposure on USA Today. Food paradise on the Travel Channel many more. But yeah, his band I first discovered sacred Reich back in the high school days watching the show on MTV called Headbangers ball. Because when I was a kid back in the 90s, there was no YouTube. So if you wanted to watch heavy metal and hard rock videos, you have to stay up late on Saturday nights. So they would do this thing called the countdown to the ball from 11pm to midnight, and that was like the top 10 video. As the week and then from midnight to 2am they would play heavy metal and hard rock videos. And I remember seeing the video for the song independent. And I thought it was such a great song if I was in the same league as Metallica, anthrax, Megadeth all those guys. And so I bought the CD. Fast forward years later, and I'm talking to my cousin will Pitts, who I've also interviewed on this podcast, check out that episode. If you haven't checked that out before. He's an Emmy winning Emmy Award winning journalist. Anyways, I was talking to him and he's a big fan of rehab burger. And he mentioned that he knew the owner of rehab burger and then he was in some band. And then when he said sacred Reich, I was like, it all came back to me with the video on MTV and the CD and I also remember they were in the movie Encino Man. And I was doing my research I also found out a lot more. I got some great stories from Wiley about not only his musical career and terrain with Motorhead and Pantera, but also how him and his friends from Reagan knows was a popular Arizona pizza place. How they Open rehab burger, how the whole thing took place. So enjoy this episode with Wiley Arnett... All right, well welcome Wylie Arnett guitarist from Sacred Reich and owner of Rehab Burger. We'll get into all that stuff.

Wiley Arnett :

It's true. Good to be here with you. Yeah.

Chuck Shute :

How you doing?

Wiley Arnett :

If I was any better. I'd be you.

Chuck Shute :

Well, that's a good one...

Wiley Arnett :

a good right. It's sacred sacred.

Unknown Speaker :

Right. What I say I

Unknown Speaker :

thought I heard right. But right. Yeah, it might be sacred. Right. Sacred. Right. Right. But yeah, see? Rei? Ch. Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

yeah. Made it made more sense when we were 16. Yeah.

Chuck Shute :

Well, so you you grew up here in the valley in Scottsdale, Arizona, right. Yeah. Okay. And then you were you were influenced by Leonard Skinner for music, but then it was really Randy Rhoads that inspired you to pick up the guitar.

Wiley Arnett :

It's true. I had some family members. So I was introduced to guitar on acoustic and what was popular back then was Leonard Skinner. So I learned a lot of that start with CCR, you know, open chords, that sort of thing and had some uncles Some cousins who play so got a lot of instruction and influence from them that's what they were doing so of course that's what I did. So how old were you when you when you picked up the guitar then

Chuck Shute :

1212 Okay, yeah, so at the time this is an 80 so it was like you said it was a lot of like scorpions and rat and dokkan and Testament later

Wiley Arnett :

true once once we kind of got through that acoustic introduction and we started to figure out you know, what we were into it ended up being the more modern rock of our day and those were certainly the bands that were happening Judas Priest and always love the expressive guitar solo so Mateus jabs and scorpions and Glenn Tipton and kk downing from priest and Oren demartini. And all those guys, Dr. George Lynch, doc and

Chuck Shute :

were you into Metallica, because they were they were rounded there for some reason. Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

I wasn't at the front of the heavy metal thing. So Metallica was there I remember I had some friends who are transitioning from punk rock into heavy metal thrash metal. Yeah, I wasn't quite getting it. A lot of the guitar players were reckless and those genres, and I was like kind of aspiring to be more disciplined and thoughtful. Yeah, you did like whammy bar dives. I look back at it now and I'm not sorry that I had an opinion that steered me in new direction. Sure. I couldn't imagine you know, Slayer with a young guitar just wouldn't. part part of the appeal is like, uh, you know, I imagine a coloring book crawling outside of the lions and the Mad dive bombs and you know, it's not hyper analytical or disciplined, it's reckless and off the rails, you know, so so back then it was irritating because I was really trying to be disciplined I was working with metronomes alternate picking, you know, trying to really just be a matter of fact player so I wasn't much inspired by that. But as the years went on, and got into a thrash band and started to meet all these people, and you know, you mature a little bit you're you recognize it had to be that way, you know, random blood wouldn't have been right nearly as cool with a super thoughtful soloist well So

Chuck Shute :

were you taking lessons in Are those the stuff of the metronome and all this self taught

Wiley Arnett :

it was mostly self taught. I was I was getting great tips from people who went ahead of me, but I wasn't really sitting down with with, you know, taking appropriate lessons.

Chuck Shute :

So and then did you go to Coronado High School down the street here? I did. Okay, that's it. I worked there for like a year. That's kind of interesting. It was also that that school is in the bill and Ted's movie industry until they tore it down. And but they kept up the mural.

Wiley Arnett :

Right, right. So you can see a little piece of that.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, I think that I interviewed the Gin Blossoms singer, I think I think they went to know maybe the guitarist or somebody from that band also will get or not Oh, yeah. Is that where you met all the guys? that are in

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, there were the four of us. We were all there. We were like a great apart Phil bass player. singer was the youngest. So when he was a freshman, I would have been a sophomore, although I had already dropped out.

Unknown Speaker :

Oh, really? Yeah.

Chuck Shute :

Freshman year. Freshman year. Yeah, yeah, I walk around with an eighth grade education. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing for all the things that you've accomplished. So

Wiley Arnett :

yeah, well, I've got a disciplined mind, I just wasn't. If I'm interested in things, I become obsessed, and it's amazing what I can get done. And when I'm not interested, then I just fail horribly. So I've been real fortunate and surrounding myself with things that I'm interested in. And then I tend to excel. I don't mind reading and doing the work. I just got to be driven. Otherwise, like,

Chuck Shute :

so what did you do for those? Were you just in bands and doing music during that time, your parents, the parents let you do parents want to get out?

Wiley Arnett :

My mom, and she was not in love with the idea. I had a couple of family members who, who helps me in talking to her just that, hey, he, he is applying himself, not just your average, 14 year old talking about playing guitar, he's already put in several years and he's excelling past, you know, people been playing five years. He's competitive already. So there was some evidence that maybe I could make something of it. And then I had to just make a commitment that I would use that time to be done. Discipline there wasn't going to be sleeping all day and partying. So I had needed to show her for a little while. And then she saw that I literally would play six and eight hours a day, she'd have to come flip on my bedroom light and six to

Chuck Shute :

eight hours a day. I went through Wow,

Wiley Arnett :

it wasn't it wasn't four years, but it was during that time, just before we got a record deal where I was kind of I thought, I pressured myself a little bit that way. Everyone's at school. I should be doing something. Yeah. And I got an a busboy job at the salad bar, which is right up the street here. It used to be there in that 68th Street and Thomas right there in there. Oh, there we used to be called the salad bar. That was

Chuck Shute :

the name of it. It's not a very creative salad bar salad bar. Okay. It was the 80s vegetarian craze, okay. And so you form the band with the guys from Coronado and then flotsam and jetsam was was a big, that was a bigger band at the time. They helped you out a little bit in those early days and they're famous obviously further bass player Jason Newstead, who went on to be an Metallica sure so you guys know Jason, he helped you out a little

Wiley Arnett :

bit. It's true that they had formed the band. I remember seeing sacred Reich before I was in the band and they were kind of a thrash metal cover band. And flotsam and jetsam was the first ones I remember they were called the dogs. And we went to alternative high which is the old Apache Elementary School, which I went to, or kindergarten to sixth grade. But then they closed it, turn it into a high school for alternative people were having challenges in traditional school. They could have smaller classes. Long story short at night, there would be bands playing there. I remember going to see the dogs who would become flotsam and jetsam, and being confused by the whole thrash metal thing. And aspiring to like being excited that here's people growing up with and going to school with who are doing things. Yeah, that's good. But I somehow I've got to find my band like my own little rat or dokin or something.

Chuck Shute :

So how would you describe thrash metal to people because I think a lot of people say oh, dokin and Metallica is all this everything's heavy. Metal how's thrash? I mean I know in my head what thrash metal is but how would you describe it

Wiley Arnett :

looking back I would I would say that you know rat and dokken were pretty much glam metal they got turned up from there to poison and more more hairspray more eyeliner, more bandanas but but but before that was them and they were you know the spandex and the eyeliner and then the the butt shaking and girl chasing and some really great guitar players. Yeah, definitely. So so that's what was driving me there really wasn't the span decks. But very long story short, sacred Reich was a band that did a demo tape they wrote their first four original originals and created a demo tape. This was around the time flotsam and jetsam had just been signed to metal blade records, I believe was about 85. And they were on a compilation record metal massacre, right seven. And then the feedback from being on that record was positive and it led to a record deal. We had done the demo tape and Jason Newstead was actually working, you know, working new flotsam material, and he had come up with a college radio mailing list before you could buy a book that told you to do this sort of thing. He was really innovative and kind of cutting. This is how you break bands. Yeah. And he understood that he his best traction would come from college radio. So he was sending his own tape out. And then he felt weird because the other side of the tape was blank. And he burned our demo tape on the back of his own Hmm. Which immediately started creating attention. All sudden, we're getting an email or an email, we're getting mail and a PO Box from Ohio college. Hey, you guys have some more material. I'm interested in featuring you on my radio show. And we realized that, you know, college radio was a big thing back Mm hmm.

Chuck Shute :

Interesting, because now when I was in college radio in the 90s, and I was a DJ that put that you had to play like, it was not metal like I don't think they played any metal so that back in the early 80s metal was kind of a it was an alternative thing.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, I think they were Multiple stations and we were you know, obviously communicating with the more metal ones. So So going back to your first question, you know, yeah, glam metal, heavy metal metal thrash metal seemed to be a bit faster and a little bit outside of the lines. To me I think like Slayer reign in blood is like the blueprint for thrash metal.

Chuck Shute :

it a little bit of punk mixed in there too, at least for your band too. Sure.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. Like when I listened to ignorance, I pretty much hear all the riffs, we stoled from Slayer, which was our first record, we were like 17 1819 and 20 years old. We've never done a record before. So our pockets were full of all the songs we've learned. Phil is a major contributor on writing and a huge Slayer fan. So that's where a lot of that influence came from. But even today, when I put it on, I think that's probably true with all musicians, everything they play, they know where it came from. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to listen to things objectively cuz everything I've ever done, I know where I got it. Okay, interesting.

Chuck Shute :

So yeah, time take me to that part because Like you said, You're on the metal master compilation and then the ignorance album. It was the same year. So what came first the album and then you put that song in the metal massacre or

Wiley Arnett :

the compilation record, the demo was out, the band was starting to get attention. And then lead guitarist Jeff Martin and a good friend that we all grew up with. I knew him while he went to the army or Navy or something. He went to join the military. And they came to me in a pinch because they were getting attention. I needed a lead guitar player. I know you're not into this kind of music, but can you maybe help us out for a little while? And till we figure it out, and I'm like, Whoa, let's see. Like, I don't know. I was kind of hesitant and then Phil shared with me a testament record and he goes, Hey, I know that you one of the things you get hung up on. This is the guitar playing stereotypical thrash music. He goes, check this guy out. His name's Alex Skolnick, and I'm a guitar player. I listened to that and I was like, whoo. All sudden, the heavier I could identify with With the heavy stuff, I didn't want someone to expect me to just hit dive bombs during the guitar solos I wanted to, you know, be more thoughtful and he certainly was. So it kind of turned me on a dime right then I'm like, I think I will do this. And there's an opportunity to kind of rewrite some of the solos that that you know, on the demo and stuff he's like, just make it your own man. Wow. So early in, we wrote another song together called ignorance. It was the first song that we wrote with me in the band, and we added it to the demo tape and kept marking it with the new song. So we recorded the title song sacred Reich, okay, which existed before me. But I changed up some of the solos and kind of made it my own. And we added those two tracks to the demo tape and started working that lots of Jetson was doing a showcase. We know now that they were already being offered. being offered a traditional record deal they had already was like 85. They went on metal mask or seven, and then metal blade was coming back to see them live to talk about a possible full on record deal. They had already made up their mind they were going to offer him a record deal but they still call it a showcase. Huh, so showcases where when the labels come in, yeah, heard about last sale. They print up a big backdrop and yeah, I spend extra money on a light guy that night. Yeah, just try to come off as Pro. Is that

Chuck Shute :

stressful though being that young? And is the pressure does that get to you? Or does that like you rise above it? Or how does that work? I think

Wiley Arnett :

it's like any kid who had a talent contest or a play at school. You know, there's some preparation, there's some anxiety that I feel stupid. Yeah. Is this gonna be great, but all that practice

Chuck Shute :

six, eight hours a day is gonna that's gonna pay off at this point. And then

Wiley Arnett :

sure, I didn't really I wasn't a I've always had good confidence in my playing. Yeah, don't try to play things that I'm still working on. You know, I remember an old saying I'm the difference between a pro and an amateur is a pro won't play things that are working on in front of people because it exposes your limitations. Right now about limitations. There's things that can't play. Well, yeah. And you know, I'm working on it. Yeah, but I make it a point to not do that with an audience. Right. So not watching me at the edge of my ability. I'm just looking super accomplished.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah. So you actually I mean cuz it's funny because you hear you talking about the glam rock and like I heard stories about poison where, you know they came out and they looked really cool but when they first started and some people would argue even still now, they didn't sound that great because I don't think they put as much emphasis on the music whereas you were just really putting it on the music. You were not putting it on the look as much you weren't getting the bandanas and the spandex.

Wiley Arnett :

We were like anti poser Yeah. Which is its own kind of poser. Sure. I mean, I look back we were just as young and dumb and we enjoy judging the other people but from across the street. We must have been fun to point out to look at them all their black clothes and their long bangs in there. Yeah, you know, our high tops. I mean, you know, everyone had their little cliques so we weren't better than anyone but but we were certainly enjoying the the tougher guy attitude like we don't we don't need all that stupid shit. We're just giving me give us a four count we're a metal band. Yeah, so that was cool attitude about it and you know not sorry about any of that

Chuck Shute :

now and so that album released ignorance. revolver May I know if you knew about this probably did but in August 2014 revolver, play The ignorance on it's 14 thrash albums you need to own lists, so it's definitely still getting attention. You know, years later there's

Wiley Arnett :

just this week it was added to another list. Oh really? Top 40 Best Debut records and thrash music and it was not crying. Shit, what was it? It just came up in my feed. I'll take a look.

Chuck Shute :

Okay, yeah and then so that that obviously got you guys some attention and then so why did you decide to do the surf Nicaragua? Why was that one just an EP? I always wonder with that kind of thing. Why

Wiley Arnett :

not make an album we were staying busy touring. And we didn't we didn't have a lot of songs. So instead of making excuse to not go on tour, we thought well, we'll put out what we have. Yeah, and stay busy. Okay, and that was we just didn't have the material and we were staying busy and didn't want to park there was something exciting going on. Okay, we were out. We were hitting Europe. We were in tour buses. We were starting to do it and coming home to write for six months and then record for two For three months, was like a bad idea. Yeah, no, no one not the label. Not us. No one liked it. We just wanted to stay busy. We had a couple of the songs. It turned out to be great. Just because the direction did really well, the song is probably one of our most popular if you go on YouTube, he's probably got more plays than any of our other songs. Right? They connected with a lot of people, and it put us right back out in the field.

Chuck Shute :

And the artwork was really cool, too. I think you have that record hanging up in your restaurant, right? I do. Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

yeah. And it's got the special seafoam edition you know, with a beach beach vibe over there.

Chuck Shute :

Oh, that's very cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So and that was a you I didn't really I didn't realize I was listening to an interview today with Phil and he talked about how you guys have that the person in the surfing in the on the cover that is called it's the mascots od is that the yeah isn't the I don't know you guys have like a mask. I kinda like Iron Maiden has Eddie and

Wiley Arnett :

yeah, we at one point we had a competition where you know name, name our dude. Okay, and There was a lot of fun ones one that came in that I liked was Warren peace like but in the end we didn't choose it we didn't choose anyone and we always were saying you know help us name our dude. Oh D We just started calling them od for our dude. It lacks some creativity but it makes sense. No that's fine it just felt right and I think we there was a stereo and a record collection we gave away to somebody but well that's cool. We didn't adopt the name we just kind of randomly picked one of the one of the people and that was loud wire. loud. Okay, yeah recently secured another treasure top

Chuck Shute :

40 most best thrash albums,

Wiley Arnett :

including us in the 40 Best Debut thrash albums of all time.

Chuck Shute :

Oh, for sure outlier magazine. Absolutely. So that was really cool. So around it's around this time in 88 that you guys go on tour with Motorhead that must have been a pretty big step for the band. I had the guy from dangerous toys on my show and he was they toured with her as well and he He said that Lemmy was cool, but I don't think he was a fan of dangerous toys as much. Was Lenny a fan of your band? Or?

Wiley Arnett :

He's a little intimidating? Sure. And I think our first our first show, something happened where they got in late and they wanted to go on earlier. They didn't want to be there. They didn't want to go on last. So we had to play after them. Mm hmm. And it was horrifying. Wow. It was a probably, I don't know, five or 6000 seater. And I've imagined 85 90% of them left when they were done. It was a Motorhead show. Sure, it was our first trip to Europe. record was new, we were still building our name. We didn't have the pool to keep everyone in there. And it was horrifying. Watching them kill it to a you know, packed room and then going on to a couple of people. Yeah, right up at the front. But it was also I look back at it and it was a great way to cut your teeth and get in and learn to roll with the punches and understand that, you know, expectations aren't always met. You got to get through it.

Chuck Shute :

Well, that's a lot of times when you're the opening band. Anyways that people are still filtering in and sometimes it's the lights are still on and different.

Wiley Arnett :

You know you make lemonade now is that time we look back at it, it's the time that Motorhead warmed up for us

Chuck Shute :

so what was it? Like? Do you have a lot of interactions with Lenny? I mean you say it was intimidating yeah sit down have dinner with them or anything

Wiley Arnett :

um, there was a couple times you know during catering at the clubs, we weren't going out to dinner and hanging out at the hotels on our own time but but at the venues in soundcheck, there was some interaction. And it was it was a slowly building thing, but he warms up and they're really cool. They're allowed as fuck felt like there was a lot of speed around. Seemed like everyone was amped out all the time. And you can kind of sense it big

Chuck Shute :

speed like the drug.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. Oh, like, I don't know, cocaine. meth something.

Chuck Shute :

Okay. Did you do any did you get into that suffer?

Wiley Arnett :

I did. It was It was later. Okay. But I did I would call it a problem that I had there for a little while. Wow. There's a little Less than a year, but it certainly grabs a hold of you. I got friends who got into it around the same time who've never really got out with me. It went about a year and I just I'm thankful one day I got out of the shower, I looked in the mirror and didn't recognize myself scared the shit out of me. So I was properly motivated. You know, I think the old saying if someone's having a problem they need to want to change. Sure, yeah. You know, we don't get better because mom's worried about us and we don't go to heaven because grandma went to church. At some point you need Yeah, take control of what's going on. Yeah. So I feel really lucky. I look back evidently, it's really hard to get off that. And yeah, I started out with with coke and then ended up playing with meth always snorting, never smoking or shooting, but still crazy. Remember just wasting time talking about things that we would never do is a horrible way to spend your time amped up on that stuff. So

Chuck Shute :

Motorhead was doing a lot at this time and you didn't really understand that I

Wiley Arnett :

didn't quite understand it and maybe it's you know, had a hand in me playing with it later. You got it, you know trying to fit in and do with with it with the big kids. But it was a really great first experience and we really felt welcomed by them by the end of the tour. Yeah, kind of a hugs and you know, almost like noogies like we were the we were literally teenagers.

Chuck Shute :

Did you keep in touch with Lemmy at that point? Are you here? Yes. That's why it seems very common. A lot of these tours, you like brothers, and then you just go your separate ways. It's true

Wiley Arnett :

a lot of ways. And I'm particularly bad that way, like, my mom's got to call me and go, Hey, you all right. I get real what's in front of me, you know, and that's, that's not a trade I love about myself. And I admire these people who are really good about, you know, birthday cards, calls on significant days. And yeah, I've got a few friends that way. And it always blows me away that they can be so present, you know,

Chuck Shute :

or they just put it put a reminder in there, however,

Wiley Arnett :

however, they're doing it I'm kidding. It's inspiring. Ya know that because there's a huge value. Sure, and the connections we make and keeping them absolutely. So I always enjoy and I always like to think when I see someone I can pick up right where we left off with with authenticity. Absolutely, but I can also go through your six months without talking to my brother. get distracted. Yeah, we're now in your shell and you know, you just kind of lose track of time. Yeah, and it's been that way too over the years touring with some great bands you know, we did a tillerman Pantera tour. Oh yes. Your display of power

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, we'll get to that but so before so after the Lenny tour, then you guys released the American way 1990 that one actually charged on the Billboard and all that stuff and then you guys did 91 did the another tour new Titans on the block tour It was called right was separator and Napalm Death and sick of all sick of it all. Yeah, and I heard Phil talking about the same there was a lot of fights and riots on this tour. There was one show in particular, he talked about a few remember this one, where you guys played in Gallup, New Mexico, which surprised me so I didn't know that concert there. But the mayor actually protested the show because he was a religious fanatic and thought you guys are devil music, something like that? Sure. And so they actually cut the power in the middle of the show during several tours and Max, the singer got on stage and said, Let's destroy this place. But everybody had video cameras. So the cops and this was right after Rodney King, I guess so, the cops were very hands off at this point. You remember that?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, our manager almost got arrested that night. We were We were all getting passionate and the police seemed outnumbered. So we were kind of bold in like, telling them how it was going to be and they were really asserting that hey, we're the law. Yeah, this is and and without us complying. They did pull the power and then that created almost a riotous vibe, but it fell short of too crazy.

Chuck Shute :

Was this outside or was this in a concert venue was in a

Wiley Arnett :

concert venue, like a big outdoor smoking area, okay, and it seemed to keep pouring out just to outside the venue. And especially once the music stopped and a lot of the fans are outside yelling with the police and the police who was an awkward situation like you said, I didn't really do the math at the timing of video cameras and Rodney King, but it did seem like they had their hands full and we're being a bit reserved like how do we assert ourselves? right but not burn this place down? Yeah. And it was a it was an interesting an interesting night. The the mix of bands that were out there had a mix of fans. And as you got into some geographic locations, I remember I think it was the Boston area where there was a strong punk rock vibe. Sure. And apparently a lack of tolerance from the skinhead punk fans for long haired metal guys. Oh boy. And there were some there was a few times where we'd have to stop our show because we could see some big guys with suspenders Doc Martens and shaved heads standing in the middle of the pit, and you can see him communicating, they'd pick somebody and then let's beat the shit out of them. Started out acting like they were slam dancing with intentional elbows to the eye socket. And then we're working on stomping people who fell.

Chuck Shute :

That's interesting. I remember like going to shows back there. I don't know, does that still happen with the pit and everything because that was a big thing mosh and everyone run around and just push each other. But, you know, there'd always be elbows to the face and people,

Wiley Arnett :

it seems like it's gotten a lot more peaceful. It's really feel

Chuck Shute :

got old, right? I mean, you can't go out there and mash when you're in your 50s

Wiley Arnett :

while they're still young people doing it. I mean, in between clubs, being uptight with liability and pain security to try to minimize it. There There are still times when you can appreciate inexperience a good old school pit. We played with violence at the LA LA show you're so ago, and security just let them up. And they were amazing. And it was the most old school but the pit and if someone fell, someone would go like, you know, put their arms out while someone else reached in and yeah, dust their butt off and get You know, they stand around, someone starts looking at abuse, people would come and protect them. It was a great old school safe vibe. Yeah, but that's good, but still a major aggression? Sure, sure. Definitely. in those early days, I remember seeing some violence in the pits, which we were never down with. We were like, Oh, yeah, you know, bust him in the face that was to stop playing.

Chuck Shute :

If you see something that looks too scary. We

Wiley Arnett :

have several times over the years, just to try to get him to stop or to enroll people who are watching to stop watching and help, right, probably three or five times over decades where we left the stage to jump in the crowd to Wow, not feeling like we could stop it verbally.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, so physical security wasn't doing enough or,

Wiley Arnett :

yeah, sometimes security is part of the problem. Oh, I mean, there's a lot of variables that you can run out there. But I remember a couple times, we were I want to see Rochester somewhere in New York, and having a great show in the stage drivers are going crazy and the security was being rough thrown them back in the crowd. hard, you know, twisting their arms behind their backs, open hand slapping. So Phil said, you know you guys need to mellow out some more of it went on. And he demanded the security leave the stage, or else we wouldn't play anymore. Wow. So after an awkward three or five minutes the security kind of cleared out which opened the gates to major stage diving. And then slowly a security head of security who may have been in another room watching cameras comes out like he's mad at a security team. You don't allow someone here on Friday night for four hours to make your they're not your boss, right? They can't tell you to leave the stage. You know, so he was losing his mind at his own security got fired up and wanted to know who told his security to leave. So we finished our set and there was some it was a bit of a melee the kids went absolutely crazy once the security was gone. So I don't know there may or may not have been some damage to the club. Not vandalism but certainly free range stays Diving maybe some spilt drinks on electrical stuff, you know, less vandalizing and more just a byproduct of the damage.

Chuck Shute :

That was a crazy times and then he wanted

Wiley Arnett :

to talk about it and there was like almost a band and crew versus the security thing going on off the back of the stage that got a little bit spooky buncha big sporty looking guys and a bunch of stone skinny long haired Heavy Metal Gear like I don't like our chances. Yes, we had a big six D cell mag lights, you know? Yeah, school ones which are out pretty, pretty amazing. Yeah, we're surrounding ourselves with the tools if needed.

Chuck Shute :

So you're doing the tour and then 92 you guys got on the Encino Man soundtrack. So is that just a coincidence because you're on Hollywood Records and the movies Hollywood films. So they just is that what they didn't talk to you about it or do they just grab it and actually played your music video? I think right?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. In the Encino Man. He comes he thaws out where the kids are at school comes and he steps on the remote and then it's like, I think Arnold's fortunate I'll be back a little scene and then it's the remote and it's, I don't know, 3035 seconds of the American. Yeah. And Hollywood Records we just signed with them preparing to do the independent record. Yeah, I believe they'd gotten the rights to the American way. Unless that record is part of these bringing trying to

Chuck Shute :

help you guys.

Wiley Arnett :

And then yeah, I think they do better when they can use in house bands, you know, they might earn better rates, or they are they're promoting promoting sales for something, you know, it's just it behooves them to use their own talent whenever they can. So we were really fortunate on the timing of that ended up being a classic that's played replayed several times a year in several different stations.

Chuck Shute :

You guys get like a royalty every time it's played for that. 35 seconds.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, yeah. It's not a you know, crazy significant. But, you know, some of some of the old work we did, it's not unusual to get five or $700 every three or four months for shit that I did when I was 18. And then 8687 you know, it's just Pretty

Chuck Shute :

crazy yeah so yeah cuz you then you in 93 you did the independent record and I think Would you say that's kind of like your commercial peak at that point mean they played the independent that's that's when I discovered you guys cuz I I heard the end I think I saw the independent song I must have seen it on Headbangers ball, and I went bought that album. And I guess the song was also on the program soundtrack and the son in law soundtrack. Yeah. So I mean, that was kind of like you guys were doing pretty well.

Wiley Arnett :

Finally, we're finally on a major label. Peter paterna, who was our lawyer ended up being the president of Hollywood Records. And that's when we transitioned over there. And we got a sweet deal. The same guy who negotiated all our other contracts with metal blade and Enigma was now writing up the contract label. Yeah, so it was really nice. Unfortunately, he got fired and then shortly after we got fired or like so, but but it was an exciting time we had a major label, you know, we'd go visit Peter at the Disney Studios. You know, Hollywood Records is owned by Disney. Okay, and one of probably a couple things besides we didn't perform as well as they would like to see at a major record label. You know, we weren't golden platinum, a couple hundred thousand records over. Okay, they want to see explosiveness or what the hell are they doing? Right, right. Which you got to understand that their business model is different than an independent who's sure like metal blade is Slagle is a metal fan. Yeah. And he understands these guys don't do records if someone like him doesn't do it, right. And the expectations are appropriate. And then when someone sells 100,000 Records, it's like, drop the confetti. It's a big deal. Yeah. And so so it's a different vibe. We went from, you know, being celebrated to kind of like being the troubled stepchild. You can feel the expectation and you know, falling short, so that was it was an awkward time. We're throwing a lot of money at it. We had plenty of support. I look back at that time. I'm not mad at anybody. We were given the perfect opportunity. I think we failed on our own merit for whatever reasons, we didn't appeal count as a failure though no no I mean you know not being able to do the next record and being dismissed from the label was a bit of a fail there there was an expectation we didn't meet and fell is a dirty word.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah cuz I think there's a lot of sleep every band man Yeah, there's there's I mean I'm sure there's thousands of bands that would love to have even one video played on MTV at that time or being one video You know, one song in a movie or the tour with Pantera let's talk about that. That was must have been a fun tour. So tell me what it's like to tour with those guys like back in the prime of I mean, I saw I saw paint I must have not seen him with you guys opening I don't because I don't remember that but I mean, that must have been pretty crazy. I've seen videos of those guys like in a skid row video where they're you know just did just go crazy right? I mean, what was it like backstage hard to keep up with?

Wiley Arnett :

Their ability to drink and smoke and party and you know sleep all day and party till the sun comes up is is not a story. It's a truth. They were amazing quality dudes A lot of love. We didn't we, you know, over the years I guess in any situation drama can poke itself up but they were really jelling as a team and their performances had an authenticity level that I had not seen a lot and I'd already been touring for a while it was kind of a stop and watch like whoa, when you're all on the same page and you don't talk about it, you just do it and it just kind of arrives like you know, they weren't talking about okay then this part of the song you come forward now feedback and like the whole stage presence Yeah, inevitably a stages get bigger and you're, you know, a setlist you should think about, there's a beginning, middle and an end, people waited in line got a shirt, you got to bring them on an experience. So it's not unusual to have a discussion or try to anticipate how you're going to deliver an experience to your fans. But these guys were so organic and authentic. And from night to night. There were some key points that would this if that time was great to act that way, but there would also be really big switch ups where they were wasn't the same language every night introducing the song stand in the same place. It was real organic. That was one of the things I picked up on early. That was influential. You know, dimebag was already a guitar hero. Sure, and being able to pal around a bit and watch him close from onstage was amazing. And just how effortlessly, you know, he didn't spend a lot of time looking at his guitar spinning off his side, you know, this extension of his person, you know, almost like you see a kid who's really good on a skateboard like this, they can't fall off it, they just stick it on the wall or grind it down the rail and flip flip is almost like watching that with him. And I like to think I'm an okay player. And it was amazing for me to just kind of witness that. And, you know, all these years later, it's no surprise to me that he's joined the, you know, the historic, significant guitar. Absolutely. Yeah. He's immortal. Yeah, you know, he's joining you know, like, there Roads, you know for sure taking too soon and a serious body of work left behind absolutely many people to be inspired by.

Chuck Shute :

So what was what was some crazy you remember is there's things that stick out like stories or crazy things happened on that tour?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. Fun one, I think was Ohio. Her arena was the last last night of the tour. And we toyed with, you know, I wonder if it's cool to do some pranks on stage and stuff. And we were playing for a while and we were noticing that they were doing something on the side of the stage. And there was some silly string and it started ramping up and then they kind of disappeared. And I remember we were three or four songs in and I was thinking why I guess that was it. We got some silly string. It wasn't so bad. And then I'm noticing the front row of the crowd are looking past us, pointing and laughing. So it took me I don't know. 3040 seconds. Finally I turned around and look what's going on. They dropped a backdrop over our backdrop. Like, take some sheets together. And it was a skull similar to our dude. And I think it said suck it right or felt it right some play on the words and remember exactly what it was some sarcastic shit and then it had a bunch of funny stuff written all over it. So here we are on that's cool and act off backdrop and then it started to progress from there at one point dimebag came out and it was like hard to hold on to my guitar. I didn't know if he was trying to take it from me or what was going on but but it was crazy. In retrospect, I think they were distracting me because they put about 10 pounds of ground beef over my mini puddle. So you know there's a foot controller for you. You can go from clean channel to your

Chuck Shute :

door Yeah, lead channel distortion and all that is

Wiley Arnett :

a foot there's a foot controller so it's on a MIDI cable to run out to the front of the stage. And a guitar solo came up and I was looking for and the lights are flickering so that sometimes it can be hard to find. So I went back to the app and I followed Mike the cable, the MIDI cable fingering there should be a pedal at the other Part of it and it led to about 10 pounds of ground beef. So I tried to kick some of the beef off of it so I could see where the buttons were. And then I started stepping on buttons. And the funny thing about that is three or five days later, 85 degrees in the back of an equipment truck. It was like quite a stinky science experiment going on in my phone.

Chuck Shute :

But it's still worked really.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, well, it works good and we got it. We ended up disassembling it and getting a proper cleaning internally on it. Okay, to this day, I still got those Marshall cabinets that were on that tour. And one thing that's really cool about them is there's ketchup stains from dime bags, and he come out here like cap gun holsters and then he had a mustard and ketchup. Okay bottle, and I saw him squirting people in my mind it was that, you know, the ketchup bottle with the red string and the knot. And everyone flinches. Sure, but it's not really catchy. Sure. So I was laughing I Oh, man, these guys got all kinds of tricks up their sleeves, and then he came by me and I just kind of stuck my face out like, go ahead. And it was ketchup.

Unknown Speaker :

It was real ketchup

Wiley Arnett :

with a cop. I remember I put my neck and it was like in my hair and I'm like what?

Chuck Shute :

Fuck yeah, those guys don't fuck around. No,

Wiley Arnett :

no, it was real deal. And then there were a couple other nights where you know, they'd hang out and there'd be some diehard fans after the show sneak around to the back by the buses. And there was a kid who was just really loving hanging out with the band. He had a Camaro and I'd be like I drive it he's like fuck yeah man, like had no hood on it. It reminded me of myself like car had no stereo. But all the chrome from yeah, check her autoparts haha no hoodie because it wouldn't fit because you know the big big fat air filter and smoking pot watching dimebag run doughnuts around this parking lot. Was was another fun thing. And then that night we signed a car. Just kind of like the first time I ever signed a car. That's pretty cool. Yeah.

Chuck Shute :

Wow. So kind of like This great high you got the moon songs on the movies, you got your videos on MTV. And then you turn with Pantera. And then all of a sudden, what they just dropped the record company drops you What happened? Here we just, they will expect you to set so

Wiley Arnett :

there was some more time millions records if things were still going good. And after the pan territory. There were other fun tours. I can't I can't remember exactly what they were off top of my head. You're doing better than me with the timing. But there was some more time that went by and I think it was probably 96 was the hill record. Mm hmm. And we lost Greg our drummer. And Dave McClain came in

Chuck Shute :

from Machine Head. Yeah, he later would join Machine Head. Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

correct. So we were in this weird transition. And I remember metal was struggling a bit. The the Seattle grunge scene was coming in and dominating the tension in sales and Nirvana. And a lot of people were like cheese. You know what way forward, maybe we were a little too late. Like we were there was this prime metal spot and we got to the tail end of it.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, because at some point, I think it was 9596 they canceled Headbangers ball and this is before YouTube so I remember saying up until whatever it was to in the morning watching Metal videos on MTV, that was the only time you could watch it and so when they canceled that I was like, well now how do I find out about bans anyway, like it was just really bizarre. You're seeing a decrease in record

Wiley Arnett :

sales, you're seeing a decrease in ticket sales. We were going back to club, you know, it's like you start out you you go on your first tour and you're playing you know, 60 hundred seat, you know, bars across the states pulling a trailer in your 10 passenger van. And then finally, you get to this 1500 or 3000 seat, you know, larger club or small, you know, arena looking things and then you think yourself to yourself, wow, it's working. Next stop Coliseum. And then and then you kind of backstep like this that club we played a few years ago. ago and and it just wasn't working, you know? It seemed like we were going we were going we were going we plateaued in a very respectable place we plan. Sure but but not meeting our expectations. So there's a frustration Yeah. And even internally I mean, you're trying to stay enrolled mentally it's it's tough work. The first couple years are a lot of fun, but you start to learn that wow. Live out of a bag.

Chuck Shute :

Did you guys have a tour bus at that point? Or did you rent one or house?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, by independent all that. We didn't own one we'd always rent them, release them for the tours. And but it was comfortable traveling and stuff. It's a great way to to live life and especially when you're in your 20s traveling around in a rock band. Mm hmm.

Chuck Shute :

Every night you guys did world near all over the world, right? Not just us.

Wiley Arnett :

That's true. We spent a lot of time in Europe. Later, we ended up in South America. And then we still have We've been to Russia. We did go to Australia, New Zealand haven't been to Japan. So there's still some places we haven't seen that were so sad.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah. But they're on this time in the mid 90s. The popularity of the band waned a little bit and then you guys are dropped from the record. You didn't you hadn't necessarily quit the band yet. But in 94, you took is this true around this time you took a job as the director of purchasing for regular Joe's pizza, and then you you ended up staying it? You worked with us for 18 years? It's true, and but you're still in the band for the first six years of that job, right?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. I would kind of take off for a couple months to tour and then I'd come back and say, Okay, if you guys need help, my wife would get pissed that sit around all day, she was working full time. And when I'd come home from tour, I had about two weeks to relax. And then it drove her crazy that I was sitting around smoking pot playing video games while she was at work.

Chuck Shute :

You got to earn that though.

Wiley Arnett :

So I started going, I had friends I went to high school with that. Were over there. Gentlemen, David Leonard was the kitchen manager over there. So he hired me and I came in as a cook for minimum wage. I'm surprised Cook. And then I worked my way into pretty cool position. There was one location then, by the time I left, we had opened about eight, eight locations. And I ended up with an office gig in an executive position.

Chuck Shute :

So why did you take that job though? and nine because I mean, you're still I know that, you know, the band maybe had waned a little bit in popularity, but you still have a pretty good resume as a guitar teacher. Why didn't you work as a guitarist? Why didn't you take a job as a guitar teacher or something else related to the music business? Were you just fed up with the music business at that point?

Wiley Arnett :

Kind of, Okay, I kind of burnt myself out on it. I never felt qualified to give lessons, self taught and very untraditional. I don't mind giving some coaching but I don't have a disciplined theory to slowly unfold and bring someone along. You know, I enjoy playing with people who are relatively new at it and sharing perspective. But half the time I don't even know a key I'm in I'm just a real from the hip feeling player. It's funny because like I said earlier, I spent the time The discipline was metronomes. And that's just hands on time. But what I wasn't doing was reading books or taking instruction. I was training my hands I was listening working on vibrato and you know, alternate picking. So

Chuck Shute :

you don't know how to read music or Huh, that's interesting. I don't know, I was already

Wiley Arnett :

yours. I've accidentally picked up on some stuff just by hanging around, you know, professionals.

Chuck Shute :

But most of the when I was in high school, I took guitar lessons. And my teacher told me he's like, Yeah, all those guys that you like Angus Young, he's like, none of those guys know how to read music. I was like, and it kind of like, blew me away at that point, because I thought, Oh, no, they're like, professional musicians. But no, a lot of them it's just, they just self taught.

Wiley Arnett :

You know, there's different paths for different people. I don't think I don't really believe there's a right or wrong way. It's so individual. I think some people are really, really suited for being book smart and disciplined and learning that way. And then you know, when when there's a challenge in their life, they can fall back on these these troubleshooting skills that they learned. I remember a few times even in the purchasing job, having unique situations that I've never faced before. And I would have to really troubleshoot and try to figure it out. No one ever taught me this, I'd never seen it before. And sometimes I would be jealous of some some of my co workers who were college graduates with a with a, you know, bachelor's in business, they would immediately start, like, have this point to go through all of this happen, we should be checking that. And it was because they were they were taught. But then there's also been times where I felt like an advantage because I wasn't limited to anything anyone ever showed me. And would think outside of the box, not because I was you know, trying to just because I didn't have a box. Sure.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, box one you probably learned a lot from what I've learned is that a lot of people that you know, with success is that you you got to fail a lot and learn from those failures and mistakes

Wiley Arnett :

in music. Like when you're writing, it's such a creative process it some people are served well by knowing the whole music theory. So it's like I got this riff I like it's in C sharp I immediately identify these six directions that shake hands Well, with C sharp, I could go where I don't. So I really sometimes the the best part of writing or developing a guitar solo for me is stopping. And I listen. And I start to hear something. And it's not coming from my music theory. It's not coming from my understanding of how notes shake hands. It's been inspired by what I'm hearing, and it's leading me to the next place, and then I'll search for it and find it. And then sometimes I have to train my hand because it's new to me. And I just bring it up to speed and it becomes, you know, one of the things I do, and that there's something really organic and natural about that process that I like, sure, but it's not better or worse. Yeah, is this different the way I work that that works for me, and I like that I'm not considering all my options. I'm afraid that that would be loud. And I wouldn't be inspired by hearing the next part. I would be analyzing my options instead of just kind of emotion. Feeling

Chuck Shute :

Well, yeah, that's got to be a big piece of music is how you feel and emotion. I mean, sure, yeah. So you get the band takes a hiatus for about six years. And then you formed a band called the human condition with a saint Magnus vocalist profit. So and then for six years hiatus and then around 2006 It sounds like there's kind of a resurgence in popularity. It was interesting because I heard Phil's take on this. And he said, Well, you know, we were we were able to kind of get that resurgence because, you know, our metal was more socially conscious and political and not about the upside down crosses and churches burning churches and things like that. So I was like, I think that was like a big thing that was big in the 80s that maybe didn't have as big of a resurgence but, but the thrash metal I think was a little bit more timeless in my opinion. I think that that's a fair observation. It's also true that a lot of bands we were out with back then who weren't

Wiley Arnett :

socially conscious slash political are also enjoying a research, just sure yeah, definitely. You know, Cannibal Corpse and overkill Yeah, so these guys staying busy and they're back at it is 2020 they got new releases. There's so many in it that that's not you know, yeah their

Chuck Shute :

case at all. No I know because I'm interested in a lot of the glam rock the hair metal stuff and that's even had a big resurgence as well a lot of it is with these cruises and then these festivals, which, in 2009, you guys did a graspop metal meeting ended up playing, you know, playing this festival a few times and some of the people he played he played with Ozzy Guns and Roses, Motley Crue, Sebastian, Bach, anthrax, Megadeth, Slayer, Iron Maiden Black Sabbath journey. I mean, the list goes on and on. Is there any band that you didn't get to play with? That's on your bucket list?

Wiley Arnett :

You know, just been Randy Randy Rhoads. Yeah,

Chuck Shute :

be

Wiley Arnett :

nice a little late, but probably would have run into him eventually. Because, like you just noted we did kind of catch up with everyone. Not at the same level. Yeah, you know, these guys. A lot of these bands you're noticing and they're they're playing between seven and eight. Yeah, yeah, on Friday night, where maybe we were Friday afternoon at 1pm.

Chuck Shute :

So yeah, how does that work? So do you even see these other bands at all? I mean, you're still on the same bill. But

Wiley Arnett :

sure, yeah, like when we go through, we're usually these festivals for three or four days, you know, you know, Thursday to Sunday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, something like that. And there's three stages, sometimes bands playing simultaneous, but there are 400 yards apart. So it's not an issue and then, you know, almost like a big, Warped Tour. Okay, Warped Tour. I've taken my dog a few times. And it's like, you kind of got to get to get to schedule the itinerary, right? And when get with your group of friends and decide who you're going to watch, you might have to sacrifice or make a difficult decision. One day, I was really upset because I really wanted to see Leonard Skinner who was playing the stage over at the same time as us. So in between songs. On a couple occasions, I was like, Just give me a second. I was picking things up and I was working on a guitar because I just wanted to hear Sweet Home Alabama. Another 30 seconds before we got started again. That morning we were in the same hotel. I can't remember. I think that was summer breeze festival. But we woke up in the hotel. I got up early, and I went down for breakfast and I'm like, Hey, can I sit here and there's some guy enjoying breakfast and I start talking to him. I'm like, you know, you work in this weekend. He goes, Yeah, I play in a band. I go cool. meteos What bands you playing? I go sacred rock. He's like, Oh, I think I've heard of them. I go, who you playing with? He was Leonard Skinner. No shit. I play piano. He's I've only been with him a couple years. You know, so I'm not an old record or anything. But, yeah. So we sat and we had breakfast and later I caught up with him. And he was kind of my excuse to get closer to the stage. Yeah, we were playing at the same time. But they were preparing and we were preparing and there. I just went over there at a golf cart and someone gave me a ride over there.

Chuck Shute :

Would you ever want to do that? Would you ever want to join a really big band like that, like Metallica or Megadeth or Slayer Exodus or something different, you know? Not not necessarily I

Wiley Arnett :

think it would be fun like a like filled demo from violence. When Gary Holt's father was ill, he stepped in for a while. I don't know if I could have done it and yeah, the demo he learned like shit 18 songs in 48 hours and then was on stage at festival sized crowd. Wow, pretty amazing what he took on and how well he pulled it off. I mean, I'm not surprised. He's a great guy and a talented guy. But boy, that phone call to me, I would have been full of his anxiety. Oh my god, it's it's a lot to get done. But I could imagine something like that being a lot of fun. I really love the man I'm in so i don't i don't i don't spend a lot of time thinking about boy I wish I could. How cool would it be to be in Metallica song? Obviously that would be amazing. And the success that is associated with those large bands? Sure. certainly welcome. But in the end, you know, I'm 52 now. Yeah. And I'm hanging around with people I grew up with. We're playing things that we're passionate about this new records got a real positive vibe that just really shakes Yeah. With our you know, nowadays perspective, let's

Chuck Shute :

talk about that. So 2018 you guys finally recorded. Another I think had been how many what, like 26 years or something you had done 25 so awakening, it was actually recorded here in Arizona in Mesa, a place called Platinum underground. So how long does it take you to record that? What's the process? Like?

Wiley Arnett :

I think we got it done in one month. Okay. And there might have been just a little bit of mixing and mastering you know, after that time, but all the tracks and most of the, the mixing was done in

Unknown Speaker :

March, okay.

Chuck Shute :

Last year, so then 19 and then you guys get to go on tour with war. Can you explain because for people who don't maybe know a lot about heavy metal or what gore Can you explain how do you I don't even know how you'll have to also let you do it because I can't explain what core is it's very unique.

Wiley Arnett :

is the only enter galactical non human metal bands are they the crash landed in Antarctica where there Based under I shell somewhere and hidden out, basically there are a lot of fun. They've got their like a party band or like AC DC with makeup on about getting drunk. The anatomies big costumes are like, yeah, a lot of blood, the blood out and all sorts of things that it's like a real experience. You know, like earlier we talked about, you know, there's a beginning, a middle and an end. Yeah, there's certainly an experience and they, they stay tied to your current events. So there's, you know, there's Trump stuff in there. There's legalized pot stuff in there, but it's usually done with like a sarcastic humor. Okay. And at times, it's just and some of it's rude. Yeah,

Chuck Shute :

I think my friend saw them and it was during the JonBenet Ramsey thing and yeah, so I mean, I don't I think there's no bounds. I mean, you probably get away with a lot more stuff like

Wiley Arnett :

this. This tour. I was caught off guard. There's a Bruce Jenner just as a woman cutting a baby. You know,

Chuck Shute :

Dr. Jenner? Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

yeah, it's definitely politically

Chuck Shute :

incorrect. Maybe it's been in a lot of

Wiley Arnett :

blood. I mean, it's the first tour I've ever been in where two hours before soundcheck, you're covering the whole building with plastic. I never saw that before.

Chuck Shute :

What kind of what do they use for blood? Can you say or is that like a trade secret? It's it's a theatrical

Wiley Arnett :

stuff. It's water with a powder. That's a ratio they mix it up in and then they have these large tanks through using them using a lot of compressors and pipes to distribute through and then the uniform or the uniforms, the costumes. They have little connectors are just like you can have in a garage for the compressed air. And then they just they're able to blow movie

Chuck Shute :

special effects almost right.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. So I mean, if you get it on you it's pretty watery. But it's deep red and it stays closed and it looks you know on the floor. It looks like puddles of blood for sure. Doesn't feel like it blood, you know Check that it's like red water. And then there's also green was I think they call slime or Okay, alien blood. But again, if the viscosity is

Chuck Shute :

so this has got to be worse than just dimebag spraying you with ketchup like did they spray you with the stuff?

Wiley Arnett :

Well, they say they were headlining. Yeah. And so we were on a clean stage before they sure. And then by the time they went,

Chuck Shute :

they don't come out early and start spraying you ever

Wiley Arnett :

know, we didn't have any issues with that. And I think they're also trying to keep the air in the compressors, and they have just enough juice laying around to get through their hour and a half set. But a bunch of great dudes though, talented musicians. funny as hell. The first couple shows I didn't like I was aware of them, but I'd never seen them. And I was kind of like, I don't know what the fuck is going on? This is a little bit crazy. Yeah, it's a bit crude. You know, inevitably, my wife and daughter are gonna be at one of these shows. Wow, prepped them for that. Yeah. But I just told him just, you know, put on your seat belts crazy. And everyone has fun with it. It's good.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, I've never seen them live, but I think it'd be an experience.

Wiley Arnett :

Check it out. Yeah. Stay back if you don't want to guess people say you got to get it on you to really have the true gore experience. I managed to get through the whole tour without getting hit. And I still, I still feel like I had a great experience and a lot better understanding and I softened up on some of the judgmental that's too crude. It took me a little while but yeah, I started to sense this sincere comedic quality sarcastic exaggeration. Not not like Yeah, no, I'm serious. Yeah, it wasn't like that at all. It was that's kind of like I don't know if you've ever seen Steel Panther. One of my favorite is very crude, but you could tell it's very sarcastic and very Sach kills me. He's one of my favorite people to watch on his videos. It's just the way he stays in character and says yes thing. Yeah, he's talking about his new Chevelle guitar, and how you know, they got the pattern off a panther or something and this whole funny story and he just doesn't break character, right. And then These guitars are so great, you know, how does it play? It plays like butter. If you could put guitar strings on butter, that's what it feels like. And he goes, and the cool thing about these is if you ever break a string, we'll send you a new guitar. And I'm like, dude, that's sharp.

Chuck Shute :

That is funny. So one more thing where the music, I heard Phil talking about your guys's old catalog that you guys are still trying to get the rights to that old catalog because some of these old records are out of print, and they're selling for like 40 or 50 bucks on eBay. So I guess Phil wrote this big long email to the record company pouring his heart and soul the Hollywood Records saying, "Look, I know this isn't a priority for you. But this is our life's work. We really need this" .... and the response he got back was "You're right. It's not a priority for us." This is just terrible. So did you guys ever get the rights to those old records?

Wiley Arnett :

No. No, it seems like we may be finding appropriate personalities. Like we were running into strangers who are busy with other shit and we're brutally honest and you're right.... "this is not a priority for us" - that really did happen. And it was a beautifully articulate letter that Phil wrote. Yeah, appealing....

Chuck Shute :

That's sad.

Wiley Arnett :

It means nothing to you and everything to us. Is there some way we can have this discussion and he did a really nice job of framing up the a reasonable debate about why we should engage in this conversation. And there might be compromise....we need to split the difference. Yeah, let's get busy with it.

Chuck Shute :

Sure. Sure.

Wiley Arnett :

You keep a piece.... we'll do the pushing. Yeah, to see if we can create some money for you. But it's such small potatoes for what they're doing. And it just fell on deaf ears and we've been unable to secure the Hollywood record stuff, which is "Independent." Okay, and "A Question", which was an EP that we kind of dropped out of ourselves because they were impatient while we were getting "Independent" ready. They just signed us and needed something. So we did the "Question" EP,

Chuck Shute :

So you can still get them on iTunes on Spotify and stuff right? Or you just you guys don't own it? Right,....yeah, we don't we don't have the right to reproduce it and release it and distribute it like through Metal Blade, our current record label - we want to rerelease it. We wanted to print them up and have new ones sure that the prices that you were talking about down to a reasonable price, and we don't need to have a million of those laying around... Sure.

Wiley Arnett :

But even if we just printed 5,000 or 10,000, it would drive down that price. We hate the idea of thinking that people are spending.... some of the things we've seen on eBay, because it's so weird. It's a tremendous compliment to think to something you did so long ago. It's become valuable. But you also recognize this because it's rare. It's like Brazilian ginger root, you got to really dig for it.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah.

Wiley Arnett :

It's not gonna be cheap.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. But, but so anyways, besides the the band stuff, going back to so you end up quitting the originals and then you opened up rehab burger in 2011. You are co owner, I guess it's up to you and a couple of the people from recognize, right, that's true. Yeah. So tell me about that. Like because,

Wiley Arnett :

well, my partners are Ken likewise, and Denise Nelson, Ken likewise was the chef over at Red Nose pizza Bistro. for 18 years. We all signed up around the same time. I think it was 9294, something like that. And Denise was the Director of Operations started out she was the lead server. He was the kitchen manager and I was a lead cook. Okay, then as we started opening more locations, to duplicate the success of what we had in Old Town Scottsdale, he took his three key people who were responsible for running the shifts in Scottsdale, when we opened the Tempe location. And we did what we did there and we duplicated the success. So then he started to realize and he had a team of people who understood why he was successful. And we started being pulled out of the traditional operation focused on overlooking all of them to ensure that there was consistency and continuity as we got to three and four and five and six locations. So that's how we kind of became executives and took on new titles director of operations, you know, procurement director, Purchasing, procurement officer and Chef Ken. So we were having a lot of fun with that it was it was really a great experience. I learned a lot like I told you earlier as a high school dropout and pretty quick into a record deal touring training in a rock band. When I got done with all that touring my resume was perfect joint rolling and high score NHL 95. Yeah, not very good for getting a job. So we kind of worked our way through that and just were surrounded with a cool leader or boss or the owner of red nose, Mark Russell. Now, later all these years later that I'm on the owner of a restaurant, I recognize one of his superpowers was developing a team and then letting them go.

Chuck Shute :

That's what I was gonna ask you about because I read this, it says, so I for me, myself, and I am educated. I have a master's degree and I worked in the schools for 17 years. Nobody ever listened to my ideas ever. And this is amazing. You listen to the servers, and the cooks. Anybody can throw out new ideas or new burger ideas and if anything, If the cook likes it, then it shows up on the weekend menu. And if it gets really popular, which I guess the peanut butter and jelly, which is my favorite burger, it gets on the permanent menu. So you actually listen to your employees. What a novel idea.

Wiley Arnett :

It's crazy, right? This idea that the people interacting, you know that where the rubber hits the road knows something about the road. That's what it acknowledges, you know? Yeah. And we learned that I mean, that was one of the lessons we learned is, we had a boss that created a team of us, and then would suggest ideas and watch us fight through it. Mm hmm. And then the byproduct would be policy. So that was no man, this is what I love. This is what I hate. He would wrestle through it, find ways to mitigate the upsets and maximize the success, and then you know, it would slowly become policy. And that's where we got our confidence over the years that maybe we could do this on our own, or recognize was continuing to grow, which isn't a bad thing. But inevitably, you have to start adopting, you know, more more corporate philosophies, and we were kind of missing a small more agile or we could have an idea Tuesday have it installed Wednesday, there was this whole, you know, with the logistics of even starting a new menu, I needed to project your usages you need to do the warehouse stocked up, you need to educate all the, you know, 21 managers on protocols for receiving new order guys updated, but it not a bad thing and evitable with growth, but we were kind of missing that. And I think he was getting frustrated with us, like maybe we were fighting the growth a bit missing the old days. And so there was a bit of a falling out. And it wasn't the same, you know, relationship that we were we were all prospering and so I left first actually Denise left first I left about three or four months after her. And then Ken was still there. And we agreed that we all missed each other and we should have a barbecue and just kind of catch up and compare notes. We had different opportunities. We would compare notes. What are you doing, what am I doing? What are we doing? And we were talking about our different opportunities and Drinking tequila and hamburgers and there's an old joke. The three of us would vacation together when we were working at oregano is the cool part about not being glued into a schedule at location is we had some freedom we could vacation together. So we usually go to California boardwalk city, or go to Mexico get a house for a few days and his barbecue and sit on the beach. And an old joke we used to always tell us nobody knows or recognize has the best burgers in town. And what happened is we were working on a meatloaf recipe and with French's meats, which is here in Scottsdale, and we identified this blend of bone out sirloin and brisket. That just is amazing. You can cook it hard so it's not pink but it stays moist, so slightly larger grain size. And we would have leftovers from meatloaf with all the Italian. We just hand pressed the burgers with salt and pepper. And they were amazing. So we would go we would ask Francis Hey, can we get that beef? Yeah and out. And that was a long standing joke. Like a manager needed to get ahold of one of us. You can't get ahold of them right now. Where are they at? They're in rehab. So these are the two way this is where rehab burger therapy. It was. We happen to believe we lived in Arizona a long time and we happen to believe we were eating the best burgers in town.

Chuck Shute :

And they didn't serve these at a regular

Wiley Arnett :

Italian. And the only reason we found that beef is because it was an ingredient in meatloaf. Yeah. Which, which did. We tried to meet up for three or three or five weeks and then we yanked it. They never tried the burger though. No wonder there's nothing to cook a burger on in there. Because it's all on the deep fryers, pizza ovens. Okay, there was no grill, but we were inevitably working with samples. Yeah, I mean, leftovers. Sure. barbecuing in the backyard. Yeah. Yeah. So so you know, you fast forward and we get to this backyard party. We're like, why don't we just open our own place? Call it rehab, burger therapy. There you go, you know escape the daily grind. get to sleep. Make you crave. be fun, and we'll use that burger. We already know it's kind of gas. I mean, we've eaten everywhere in town, right Chuck box fried wreckers, and we're restaurant veterans. Now we've been at this 18 years over 10 locations and we all agree that's the best burger in town. No one knows about it. Yeah. So we started working with French's, we got the burgers in line, came up with our logo and got a business plan and got some investors signed the lease. And, wow, this month was eight years. We've been open over there.

Chuck Shute :

And you guys have how many locations now?

Wiley Arnett :

back down to one back down? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we opened one in Tempe. That was a real struggle. We opened one in Phoenix on 16th Street in Bethany, which was about to turn the corner, and then we got hit with like everybody else. And we're like, okay, just cling to Scottsdale, you know that that's the one that we can count on, created a lot of debt with a couple of failures. I didn't want to do p2p loans for three locations and have $1.6 million in loans. The future is pretty uncertain. Right now with COVID and everything showing on, so we kind of like retreated to our safe spot. Yeah. And are just thankful to have that

Chuck Shute :

to sort of that location stay open during the lockdown for takeout then or Scottsdale. Yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

yeah. Yeah. So you guys have to take out only and delivery, we're using grubhub for delivery service,

Chuck Shute :

and you guys are doing okay, now that things are opening back up.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah. I mean, we haven't returned to, you know, pre COVID numbers and we just lost baseball season. You know, you're right. You're local here. So yeah, you know, that spring training and yeah, spring chain got huge. And our location is about three and a half, four blocks, right from Scottsdale stadium. It can get anywhere from eight to 14,000 people in it, depending on what day of the week and if they're, the big stars are playing that day. And they're just gone. I think we had four of 18 games before the season was canceled. Sounds about right. So, you know, I remember the Saturday before the announcement that spring training was was down we did over $16,000 in sales, which was on par for a good season day. And then the following Saturday we did about $700 cheese we were missing like 15 grand in LA in one day. Oh my god and that that was the beginning of a really scary time where you know, everyone was and because we're fortunate and get busy we we really don't do a lot of to go business. Sure. So we kind of spent the last eight years training people don't call us for to NGOs. So we were watching people be busy around us. We're like, What the hell's going on? And then we had to kind of recognize you. You go on a three hour wait and then someone calls for 10 burgers or even five burgers. You tell them no. Right? Because it's gonna make you three our way to three and a half hour. I mean, people get upset who are sitting in front of you because they can't see what's going on. Right and if they could see that'd be like why would you let some asshole call? We don't think They're assholes.

Chuck Shute :

So you didn't do takeout orders at all. We would cut them

Wiley Arnett :

off like, we would take them when we could. But if at any point, the person on the phone could look at the door and see Oh, wait, I'm sorry, we're not doing to goes right now. And you sure you train people one at a time and over a period of eight years, a lot of people got the message. Don't even waste your time calling them. They're busy and they won't do to go. Like we'll do midday stuff. Early weekdays stuff Monday through Wednesday, there's a chance you could pick up dinner at seven without an issue. But by Thursday night at 6pm we're doing that because it kills our wait time. Sure. We're erring on the side of the people standing in front of us who can choke us?

Chuck Shute :

Well, if anyone's listening to this if they live in Arizona and they haven't tried rehab burger, they definitely should. And if they don't live in Arizona when they put a need to put on their bookmarks to come when they come visit it could definitely come check out rehab. I think it's got it I came in list all the awards you guys have won from different Phoenix magazines and websites and things about burger, best burger and Arizona. Not even just Phoenix.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, they got some nice national accolades like a USA Today. msn.com sugar. some delicious I think was Yeah, a lot of a lot of nationals, which is super cool. We think that's mostly to do with a strong online presence. Okay, and a lot of reviews which in books comes back to award winning foods. So there's been a lot of local awards that create a splash. Yeah. And then and then I think when these guys I don't know if they send someone to every state to have a burger. I think what they do is they look at Yelp reviews, they look at your how many how many, you know, Facebook followers, you sure and they have some metric to capture like these guys are killing it. Yeah. And we've gotten a lot of those when we were featured on the Travel Channel food paradise was pretty cool. Oh, that's very cool. There was one day there was an older couple and I was walking through the restaurant, and I heard the wife tell the man, that's him right there.

Unknown Speaker :

Okay, sorry on TV. Yeah, I thought to myself, maybe there

Wiley Arnett :

I go. I know where Getting older but it's just I can't believe they're sacred right? So eventually I heard that so I knew I would come back How does

Chuck Shute :

that work? So they when the Travel Channel these TV shows do they just contact you and say, Hey, we're going to be in the area we want to do a piece on your

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, the they contacted us they said that, you know, congratulations we'd won something recently okay that they're gonna be doing work in Arizona, the the West most western foods, and they're doing a beef section where there's a show that's just all like the best beef in town. And there was us in two other places that were featured on that particular they were in Arizona for a week. But on the on the episode we played on it was just featured three restaurants for meat. Okay, yeah,

Chuck Shute :

you know, so I didn't know that's interesting about the that it came from a failed meatloaf project at oregano. And now That's right. I don't even know the connection until Reagan knows that Intel I did start doing my research

Wiley Arnett :

is really fascinating. Like, you know, rhinos never saw burger. Yeah, next Sunday, our old boss and the owner of a recognized Mark, Mark Russell. He doesn't know what I'm talking about. Sure. These were sample leftovers from projects in the in the kitchen. And then we learned that it was so good. We started requesting it. So over the years, we would actually buy it from the front. You know, when we weren't sampling anymore. We like a guy get that blend five pounds for our own backyards together.

Chuck Shute :

So the people ask you more for free food rehab or free concert tickets.

Wiley Arnett :

tickets. Oh, really? Yeah. It's you know, it's kind of awkward going to a restaurant. Hey, give me free stuff. But it's not awkward. One of the funniest memes through this whole COVID thing is like hey, right now a lot of your band friends are suffering. So maybe just shoot him a text Hey, what time you go on. Any chance I can get a plus one. Just to make us normal again. like yeah, it was just a kind of a funny meme. You know, a lot of bands aren't working right now. So it was just kind of funny like make them feel warm and just

Chuck Shute :

What is your take on that with the concerts? When do you think that will come back? Cuz I feel like there's already some live music at small places or outdoors. But I mean, the big concerts like these big festivals that you guys are always involved in...

Wiley Arnett :

It's hard to imagine that happening before there's a well distributed vaccine. Just that's crazy numbers- The Wacken Open Air festival is like 140,000 people, Graspop is like 75,000 people and Hellfest is similar. And I can go down the list is about 11 significant festivals that we're fortunate to be able to be in...

Chuck Shute :

So you don't think they check people's temperature or some sort of warning, like "enter your own risk, we can't guarantee"... or... It's like this discussion that there's some argument about what the percentage of it is, but there seems to be certainly an acknowledgement that people are asymptomatic. Yeah. So putting 100,000 people on a spot just because the temperature was good. And I don't know. I remember in grade school if I needed a temperature I could hold a penny under my tongue for a few minutes before I went to see Nurse, and I imagine that if I needed to get in a concert that I bought a ticket for six months ago and I was sick, I would hit eyedrops and hold a cool towel on my head and that would bust up... I didn't think of that people cheating....

Wiley Arnett :

...There's just the innocent, "I feel fine. I have no temperature," but could be asymptomatic. So it's so weird thing...

Chuck Shute :

The risk is too high because people don't want to be associated. You know, they don't want to the news story. 10,000 people got COVID at this concert.

Wiley Arnett :

Sure.And Philips at risk. He's got asthma. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, he's fought Diabetes. So, you know, and we're early 50s- we're not 60 or 70. But we're not 31 or 22 either... So you know, you add asthma and diabetes to 50 years old. And suddenly maybe

Chuck Shute :

scary.

Wiley Arnett :

Have to be carrying our Santi-cloths.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, Are you guys working on new music then or writing? Trying to get something?

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, absolutely... god, we haven't ruled out this idea maybe we could be in the studio by winter. Oh? Yeah, Phil, God bless him after a huge amount of time of not feeling inspired has now just been a bit of a well of new ideas and music, and then we have a new guitar player Joey, he's 23... and he's just on fire... inspiring. Got lots of fresh ideas, helping us look at ourselves different.

Chuck Shute :

Cool.

Wiley Arnett :

And then Dave comes from a real disciplined environment with Machine Head.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah.

Wiley Arnett :

So it's, it's a cool scenario and there's a there's a real excitement so everyone's kind of driven and passionate right now. So at first we were kind of like what do you know? We had the whole year pretty much booked, including all the summer festivals that we're missing right now. And then early on in the year we would have been us was Sepultura and Crowbar. All that stuff got canceled. So it's been a weird time, but I was impressed within 45 or 50 days of accepting that our plans had changed- kind of switch gears into writing.

Chuck Shute :

Okay...

Wiley Arnett :

And there's that there's already like, five, six solid ideas cooking that could easily just be songs here in a week or two

Chuck Shute :

Cool, Well I'll look for that. I always like to end with a charity. I don't know if I think I told you. Did you have something that you like to work with? Or the organization, the one that always comes to mind and I don't do enough charitable work, but it's the Children's Hospital. Sure. Yeah. I have a friend that works at one in Phoenix.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's when it when given the opportunity a couple times at the restaurant, there was a couple times they used the Scottsdale Boys and Girls Club because I went there and it was it was positive for me. Yeah. But it's in these days where you know, everyone's wrestling for insurance and trying to keep their jobs. The things they're doing at the Children's Hospital is just absolutely amazing and how they're there for people and get top quality so I you know, and I think that's had an opportunity to wave someone into support someone. Yeah. Like, don't forget about these guys have been doing it right for decades. Absolutely. Always use help.

Chuck Shute :

Yeah, very cool. You've been a part of a great metal band, you traveled the world. And you shared a stage with some of the biggest Rock Stars of All Time. You've been part of two major Phoenix restaurants here. I mean, what's Is there any other mountain that you haven't climbed yet that you want to do? I mean, you said the new album possibly is or

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, just more more of the same. There's not there's not something specific that I'm pining after that, but I do feel like, you know, I don't feel like I'm slowing down. I feel like I'm speeding up. I feel fortunate at this age, whether it's true or not. I feel like there's still a lot ahead of me that I'm excited about. Cool. I don't feel like I'm on the coast side of being the coach and the witness, which evidently happens. I still feel like I'm a participant. Give me the ball coach. Yeah, yeah, I feel like it's just nice. Not feeling like I'm on the sideline. Yeah, I just I feel like I'm on the field and I'm part of a great team and every year

Chuck Shute :

two great teams right? The band and the rest assure, yeah,

Wiley Arnett :

I must combine them. I mean, they're certainly very separate, but I just feel real fortunate to be surrounded by some talented driven people. And I recognize I can't do anything alone. You know, it takes a team to see things through especially things like this accordion records, distributing them showing up on places and playing is a lot of people got to do their job for that to work. Yeah, and the restaurants real similar, you know, almost look at the restaurant as a gig. You know, there's this pre open time which I like into soundcheck where they're adjusting lights on the stage and check 123 yeah, check once it you know, we're getting everything tuned in and then someone notices the clock Hey, doors in 10 minutes. And then the lights the lights dim you show you a little bit of your backdrop start letting people in Hayes Mert ready to go

Unknown Speaker :

sodas on for

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, burgers, you know, whatever it is and then and then the menu is the record. People have their favorite song every time they come. They just want to hear that song. They don't care about any other Song, it's their favorite song. It's their favorite menu items, they can't get them to try something else, you know, we got other great stuff, right? No, no, no, I'm going with what I know. So there's that aspect of it, you know, and then there's a bit of a pressure, you know, yeah, enjoy your hits, but you got to come up with a new song. So, you know, trying to be innovative with the menu. That's true. There's a lot of correlations for me, which is how I like my perspective. Like Lights, Camera action, there's this work that you do alone with the band. There's the rehearsals, there's the RND what it was, you know, what's the art gonna look like? What's the flavors, you know, negotiating the cost? What's to go packaging? You know, there's all that like the T shirts, the artwork, distribution, you know,

Chuck Shute :

definitely a lot of creativity in both for sure.

Wiley Arnett :

Yeah, yeah, I mean, totally different, but totally similar. And I imagine if I was into more things in life, I would be able to draw the connection. There's, I think there's always that way with it. With any luck. you're passionate about what you do. You're surrounded by some people, you're paying in a backstage environment, and then you put on your damn show.

Chuck Shute :

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for doing that. Little show here. I really appreciate it and thanks for having me. You know, we'll be in touch I'll definitely love to come see you. I won't ask for free tickets all came up for my own ticket once you guys do do a show here again. Awesome. Okay, nice, nicer. Yeah, you too. Thanks. There it is Wiley ernet guitars from sacred Reich owner of the rehab burger in Scottsdale, Arizona. If you like heavy metal, definitely check out his band on all the platforms YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Google, etc. And if you like burgers who who doesn't like a burger, and you're in Arizona, you got to stop by rehab burger. I recommend the pb&j burger, but they're all great. I want to thank Wiley for taking the time to come on my show. Super nice guy had some great stories and told me some more stories off the record. But I am going to ask his permission if I can see if I can share one or two of those on Patreon. So I just signed up for the Patreon account. This podcast has always been and always will be free. But if you want a little bit more content, and you want it you don't mind paying a few dollars. I'm hoping to provide some bonus content on my Patreon account, stuff that's not on these episodes. And I really haven't done much with it yet, but I'm hoping to grow that just like I want to grow the show. Of course I'm always on all the social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and you can find Wiley as well as sacred rake and rehab burger on all the social media as well. I want to thank you so much for listening and shoot for the moon.